BusinessManagementCareers

Work For Humans

Dart Lindsley

Too often business leaders are forced to choose between the needs of their company and the needs of their employees. It’s a lose/lose scenario leaving managers burned out and workers seeking other opportunities. At Work for Humans, we believe work can be designed differently. When you design work like products people love, your company wins. Work becomes irresistible, employees passionately buy into their roles every day, and your company takes measurable strides towards your vision.

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Tuesday · 57 min
7 Rules for Gaining Power and Influence at Work | Jeffrey Pfeffer, Revisited
Jeffrey Pfeffer has spent decades showing that people-first companies outperform, and just as long watching that evidence lose to habit. His answer is blunt: whether you're cautious about power or thirsty for it, there's no denying its role in the workplace, and ideas without power are just ideas. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff explore the purpose of power, the knowing-doing gap, and how to build profits by putting people first. Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He is the author of several books, including The Human Equation, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power. In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss: - Why most of us are ambivalent about power - Why a big title doesn't make you powerful - Why ideas alone don't change anything - The seven rules, and which one matters most - Why we never pick the leaders we say we want - Why evidence keeps losing to habit - Getting ideas past people who can ignore you - Why HR keeps losing the power game - Can you have power and put people first? - And other topics… Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He previously taught at the University of Illinois and the University of California, Berkeley, and has been a visiting professor at Harvard Business School, London Business School, Singapore Management University, and IESE. He is the author or co-author of several books, including The Human Equation, The Knowing-Doing Gap, Leadership BS, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power. His work has been cited more than 200,000 times. He hosts the Pfeffer on Power podcast and has taught a MasterClass since 2025. Resources Mentioned: Jeff's Books, 7 Rules of Power: https://www.amazon.com/7-Rules-Power-Pfeffer-Jeffrey/dp/1800751281 The Human Equation: Building Profits by Putting People First: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Equation-Building-Profits-Putting/dp/0875848419 Dying for a Paycheck: How Modern Management Harms Employee Health and Company Performance, and What We Can Do About It: https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Paycheck-Management-Employee-Performance/dp/0062800922 Leadership BS: Fixing Workplaces and Careers One Truth at a Time: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers/dp/0062383167 The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action (with Robert Sutton): https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/B00DEK8PAA Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex among Apes, by Frans de Waal: https://www.amazon.com/Chimpanzee-Politics-Power-among-Apes/dp/0801886562 Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, by Robert B. Cialdini: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X Connect with Jeff: Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/ Pfeffer on Power podcast: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/pfeffer-on-power/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-pfeffer-57a01b6 X: https://x.com/JeffreyPfeffer Stanford GSB: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/faculty/jeffrey-pfeffer Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E197
September 8 · 1 hr 1 min
Positive Discipline at Work: Why People Do Better When They Feel Better | Alanna Beebe
Parents come to Alanna Beebe's classes hoping to change their kid. But by the second week, most of them realize the person who needs to change is them. Soon after, they notice the same tools working on their boss, colleagues, and staff. None of this surprises Alanna though. Her work rests on Alfred Adler's idea that every human is striving for belonging and significance, and that misbehavior, in a child or an adult, is a discouraged attempt to get there. In this episode, Dart and Alanna explore where agency comes from, why encouragement is not the same as praise, and what parenting can teach us about designing better workplaces. Alanna Beebe is the founder and Managing Director of Sproutable, which helps parents and teachers grow remarkable kids through Positive Discipline. In this episode, Dart and Alanna discuss: - Why discipline was never meant to be punishment - What Adler believed that Freud didn't - What a misbehaving kid is really asking for - Why fixing your kids means changing yourself - Kind and firm at the same time - Where agency comes from, and who takes it away - Why companies extract instead of grow - What shared power looks like in practice - Why money doesn't build motivation - Why encouragement beats praise - And other topics… Alanna Beebe is the founder and Managing Director of Sproutable, a Seattle-based education company that has helped parents, teachers, and caregivers raise socially and emotionally skilled kids since 2016 through coaching, classes, and video content grounded in Positive Discipline and Adlerian psychology. In 2025, she founded Audacious Leadership, offering executive, life, and co-parenting coaching. She is a certified Positive Discipline Educator, Empowering People in the Workplace Educator, and Co-Active Practitioner. Before Sproutable, she spent more than 15 years in public health and early learning communications. Resources Mentioned: Positive Discipline, by Jane Nelsen: https://www.amazon.com/Positive-Discipline-Jane-Nelsen/dp/0345348567 Trust Factor: The Science of Creating High-Performance Companies, by Paul J. Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Trust-Factor-Creating-High-Performance-Companies/dp/0814437664 Peter Liljedahl on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-classrooms-how-to-design-environments-that/id1612743401?i=1000631582031 Connect with Alanna: Sproutable: https://www.besproutable.com Audacious Leadership: https://www.audacious-leadership.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alanna-beebe-5027967 Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
September 1 · 1 hr 27 min
How Companies Create Bad Performers | Elena Aylott, Revisited
When Elena Aylott was asked to lead HR at Oriflame Cosmetics, she initially saw the function as administrative and feared becoming a “chief firing officer.” Instead, she saw an opportunity to rethink what the people function could be. In this revisited episode, Dart and Elena explore how to remove the friction that gets in the way of good work, create individualized experiences at scale, and build workplaces where people can develop their potential, form meaningful relationships, and feel a sense of belonging. Elena Aylott is the Founder & CEO of Aylott Group and the former VP of Global Communications and Employee Experience at Oriflame Cosmetics. During her time at Oriflame, she worked to transform the employee experience across more than 60 countries. In this episode, Dart and Elena discuss: - Why Elena didn’t want to lead HR - Making HR more human - Why companies create bad performers - Creating personal experiences at scale - The power of small moments - Building a team without HR professionals - How language shapes culture - The real meaning of personal branding - Building one community at work - Creating transformational experiences - And other topics… Elena Aylott is the Founder & CEO of Aylott Group and the former VP of Global Communications and Employee Experience at Oriflame Cosmetics. She spent 16 years at Oriflame, including seven years leading the company’s global people function. She is also a Business and Leadership Advisor to Wisory, a Certified Leadership Coach for the EuroAcademy Leadership Institute, and a member of the TEDxStockholm Speakers’ team. Resources mentioned: The Employee Experience Advantage, by Jacob Morgan: https://www.amazon.com/Employee-Experience-Advantage-Employees-Workspaces/dp/111932162X The Power of Moments, by Chip and Dan Heath: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Moments-Certain-Experiences-Extraordinary/dp/1501147765 The Experience Economy, by Joseph Pine: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-Updated-Joseph-Pine/dp/1422161978 Mass Customization, by Joseph Pine: https://www.amazon.com/Mass-Customization-Frontier-Business-Competition/dp/0875843727 Connect with Elena: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaaylott/ Aylott Group: https://www.linkedin.com/company/aylottgroup/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E196
August 25 · 1 hr 10 min
How Sabbaticals Can Change Your Career | DJ DiDonna
DJ DiDonna had built the kind of career many people would be reluctant to walk away from. He cofounded a growing company, built a life around work, and had every reason to keep going. But eventually, he decided to step away and take an extended break, an experience that changed how he thought about work, identity, and what comes next. In this episode, Dart and DJ explore what happens when people step away from work long enough to see their lives from a different perspective. DJ DiDonna is a Senior Lecturer at Harvard Business School and the founder of The Sabbatical Project, where he researches the effects of extended time away from work. He is also the author of Big Time Off. In this episode, Dart and DJ discuss: - Why DJ left his “dream job” - What makes a sabbatical different from a vacation - Why six to eight weeks can change the experience - How time away can change your identity - The feeling of “being human again” - Why people rush back into the next job - How sabbaticals build organizational resilience - The risk of treating burnout as a medical problem - What companies gain when people step away - The three ways people use a sabbatical - How to make space for curiosity and exploration - And other topics… DJ DiDonna is a Senior Lecturer of Business Administration at Harvard Business School and the founder of The Sabbatical Project. Before entering academia, he cofounded EFL Global, a fintech company that developed alternative credit scoring for entrepreneurs in emerging markets. His research focuses on sabbaticals, entrepreneurship, and the ways extended time away from work can affect people and organizations. He is the author of Big Time Off: The Transformative Power of Sabbaticals and How to Take One. Resources Mentioned: Big Time Off: The Transformative Power of Sabbaticals and How to Take One, by DJ DiDonna The Sabbatical Project: https://thesabbaticalproject.org/ DJ DiDonna: http://djdidonna.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/djdidonna/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
August 18 · 1 hr 32 min
What We Get Wrong About Work | Barry Schwartz, Revisited
We’ve spent decades designing work around the idea that people need incentives to perform. But what happens when the systems designed to motivate people actually get in the way of motivation? Professor Barry Schwartz has spent decades studying what makes work meaningful, and his research challenges the idea that money and performance incentives are enough. In this revisited episode, Dart and Barry explore what people really want from work, why pay-for-performance can undermine motivation, and what organizations can do to create work where people have the autonomy and responsibility to do good work. In this episode, Dart and Barry discuss: - Why Barry wrote Why We Work? - How did we learn what people want from work? - Lack of autonomy as a cost of employment - How has Why We Work been received? - How to protect against bias? - Practicing autonomy with restraint - The dangers of neglect in the workforce - And other topics… Barry Schwartz is an emeritus professor of psychology at Swarthmore College. He is the author of Why We Work, Practical Wisdom with Kenneth Sharpe, and The Paradox of Choice, as well as books on psychology, learning, and human behavior. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Guardian, Scientific American, and other publications. Resources mentioned: Barry Schwartz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Schwartz_(psychologist) Why We Work by Barry Schwartz: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9781476784861 Practical Wisdom by Barry Schwartz: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9781594487835 The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz: https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/149151423X Barry’s TedTalks: https://www.ted.com/speakers/barry_schwartz Jeffrey Pfeffer: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/ The Human Equation by Jeffrey Pfeffer: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875848419 Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E195
August 11 · 1 hr 8 min
When Career Success Feels Unfulfilling | Megan Hellerer
Megan Hellerer had done everything she was supposed to do. She went to Stanford, graduated with a 3.9, and dutifully climbed the ladder at Google. But the life that looked great on paper felt terrible inside. A panic attack on the floor of a public restroom forced her to confront a bigger question: what if the problem wasn't choosing the wrong destination, but the idea that we need a destination at all? In this episode, Dart and Megan explore how we move from “destinational living” to “directional living,” and what it means to build a life and career by following curiosity, experimenting, and learning as we go. Megan Hellerer is the author of Directional Living and the founder of Coaching for Underfulfilled Overachievers. She spent eight years at Google in Strategic Partner Development before leaving to help other underfulfilled overachievers rethink work, success, and fulfillment. In this episode, Dart and Megan discuss: - The underfulfilled overachiever - Why success can still leave you miserable - Where our “shoulds” come from - Destinational vs. directional living - Why certainty can be so seductive - Curiosity over purpose - Using “warmer” and “colder” to find your direction - The value of small experiments - Designing more directional work - Can fulfillment become another destination? - And other topics… Megan Hellerer is the author of Directional Living: A Transformational Guide to Fulfillment in Work and Life and the founder of Coaching for Underfulfilled Overachievers. She has spent the past decade helping high-achieving people who feel unfulfilled rethink their relationship with work and success. Before becoming a career coach, she spent eight years at Google in Strategic Partner Development. She graduated from Stanford University with a degree in International Relations and is a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach. Resources Mentioned: Megan’s book: Directional Living: A Transformational Guide to Fulfillment in Work and Life: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593299272 Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1101875321 Bill Burnett on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/designing-your-life-how-to-use-design-principles-to/id1612743401?i=1000738307337 Margaret Heffernan on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-hidden-cost-of-certainty-at-work-margaret-heffernan/id1612743401?i=1000754431168 Connect with Megan: Website: https://meganhellerer.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-hellerer-6868326/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
August 4 · 1 hr 1 min
The Core Value Equation: Building Culture That Scales | Darius Mirshahzadeh, Revisited
Darius Mirshahzadeh built the company he'd always wanted. In just three years, he grew it from a one-person operation into one of the fastest-growing companies in the United States. But when he looked around, he realized something unsettling: he hated the company he had created. That experience forced him to rethink what it really means to scale a business. In this revisited episode, Dart and Darius discuss how core values shape the way organizations grow, why culture must be designed intentionally, and what it takes to build a company that can scale without losing itself. Darius Mirshahzadeh is an entrepreneur, author, and leadership advisor who helps founders build values-driven organizations. He founded Twin Capital Mortgage, later served as CEO of The Money Source, and is the author of The Core Value Equation. In this episode, Dart and Darius discuss: - Building culture through values - When values become operational - Hiring for alignment - The language organizations create - Measuring engagement differently - Why some polarization is healthy - Scaling without losing your culture - Finding your calling - And other topics… Darius Mirshahzadeh is an entrepreneur, author, and leadership advisor who helps companies scale through strong culture and clearly defined core values. He founded Twin Capital Mortgage, growing it into one of the fastest-growing private companies in the United States, and later served as CEO of The Money Source. He is the author of The Core Value Equation, where he shares a framework for building organizations around values that guide hiring, leadership, and growth. Resources Mentioned: The Core Value Equation, by Darius Mirshahzadeh: https://www.amazon.com/Core-Value-Equation-Framework-Limitless/dp/1544506708 Connect with Darius: Official website: https://therealdarius.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/ The Greatness Machine podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-greatness-machine/id1555334180 Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E194
July 28 · 1 hr 28 min
The Missing Discipline for Better Work | Chris Metcalfe
After years building software products, Chris Metcalfe crossed into People & Culture and noticed something surprising. Organizations invested enormous effort into understanding customers, testing ideas, and improving products, yet the work people did every day was rarely designed with the same discipline. That realization led him to ask a different question: what if work itself were managed like a product? In this episode, Dart and Chris discuss what happens when organizations move beyond HR as a service function, how product thinking changes the way work is designed, and why better work begins with solving the right problems. Chris Metcalfe is a product leader and organizational strategist helping organizations apply product management to the design of work. After leading product teams at Workday, Docebo, and Primark, he now helps People teams build product capabilities through Red Oak and PX as a Product. In this episode, Dart and Chris discuss: - HR through a product lens - Treating work like a product - The customer inside your company - Solving real work problems - Outcomes over outputs - The power of constraints - Product thinking for HR - Rethinking HR as product - And other topics… Chris Metcalfe is a product leader and organizational strategist who helps organizations apply product management to the design of work. He has held product leadership roles at Workday, Docebo, and Primark, where he led product teams spanning enterprise software and People & Culture. Today, he is the founder of Red Oak and PX as a Product, where he helps organizations build product-led People functions and apply product operating models to the design of work. He also writes The Operating Model, a newsletter on product leadership, organizational design, and the future of work. Resources Mentioned: Inspired, by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119387507 Transformed, by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119697336 SapienX: https://sapienx.co.uk/ Chris's newsletter, The Operating Model: https://metcalfec.substack.com/ Connect with Chris: Red Oak: https://www.red-oak.agency/ PX as a Product: https://pxasaproduct.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-metcalfe-red-oak/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
July 21 · 1 hr 4 min
Jobs to Be Done: A Better Way to Understand Customers | Jim Kalbach, Revisited
Most companies obsess over products, but Jim Kalbach believes they're asking the wrong question. Customers don't buy products because of what they are. They "hire" them to make progress in their lives. Jobs to Be Done is a way of uncovering that progress, helping organizations stop guessing what people want and start understanding twhat people are really trying to accomplish. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jim discuss how Jobs to Be Done helps organizations uncover unmet customer needs, align teams around real problems, and apply the framework to innovation, hiring, and finding the right work for people. Jim Kalbach is an author, speaker, and instructor in innovation, design, and the future of work. He is the Chief Evangelist at Mural and Co-Founder and Principal of the JTBD Toolkit, where he helps organizations apply Jobs to Be Done to innovation, product strategy, and customer experience. In this episode, Dart and Jim discuss: - Why customers "hire" products - Finding unmet customer needs - Solving problems, not building features - Using JTBD to drive innovation - Matching people to the right work - Understanding customer circumstances - A shared language for teams - Mindset before methodology - And other topics… Jim Kalbach is the Chief Evangelist at Mural and Co-Founder and Principal of the JTBD Toolkit, where he helps organizations apply Jobs to Be Done to innovation, product strategy, and customer experience. He is the author of Designing Web Navigation, Mapping Experiences, and The Jobs to Be Done Playbook, and co-author of Collaborative Intelligence. Before joining Mural, Jim worked in design and innovation consulting with organizations including eBay, Sony, IBM, EY, LexisNexis, and Citrix. Resources Mentioned: The Jobs to Be Done Playbook, by Jim Kalbach: https://www.amazon.com/Jobs-Be-Done-Playbook-Organization/dp/1933820683 Mapping Experiences, by Jim Kalbach: https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Experiences-Complete-Creating-Blueprints/dp/1491923539 JTBD Toolkit: https://www.jtbdtoolkit.com/ The Experience Economy, by B. Joseph Pine II and James H. Gilmore: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-Competing-Customer-Time/dp/1633697975 Connect with Jim: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kalbach/ JTBD Toolkit: https://www.jtbdtoolkit.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E193
July 14 · 1 hr 12 min
Designing Better Work With Product Thinking | Vanessa Monsequeira
Vanessa Monsequeira spent years leading change initiatives and helping organizations roll out new systems. Again and again, she saw that the hardest part wasn't convincing people to change, it was that the work itself had never been intentionally designed. That realization led her to apply product thinking to the workplace, treating work as something to be researched, tested, and continuously improved. In this episode, Dart and Vanessa discuss what it means to design work intentionally, how product thinking is reshaping HR, and why the future of work depends less on new technology than on better design. Vanessa Monsequeira is a people and product leader who applies product thinking to the design of work. She has led People teams at Miro and Gorilla and now advises founders and executives on building more intentional, human-centered organizations. In this episode, Dart and Vanessa discuss: - Why work should be designed - HR as a product team - The MVP approach to work - Experimenting before scaling - Rethinking performance management - Designing fairness into systems - Better managers by design - AI as a learning partner - Leading with an abundance mindset - And other topics… Vanessa Monsequeira is a people and product leader who helps organizations design better work through product thinking. She has held leadership roles at Miro, Gorilla, PwC, Deloitte, and Philips, where she applied product management principles to people strategy, employee experience, and organizational design. Today, she advises founders and executives on building better workplaces, developing stronger leaders, and navigating AI-driven change. Connect with Vanessa: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessamonsequeira/ Website: https://www.vanessamonsequeira.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
July 7 · 1 hr 18 min
Beyond HR: The Rise of Human Development | Bob Aubrey, Revisited
Dr. Bob Aubrey has spent decades advancing the field of human development across Asia. With experience spanning 25 countries and six continents, he founded and chairs the Advisory Board of the ASEAN Human Development Organisation (AHDO), which promotes human development across the region and beyond. In this episode, Dart and Bob discuss the global human development movement, where it fits alongside HR, and what it means for capitalism, company profitability, and the future of work. Dr. Bob Aubrey is a human development consultant, author, educator, social entrepreneur, and leadership advisor whose work has spanned more than 25 countries across six continents. In this episode, Dart and Bob discuss: - How human deveolpment (HD) creates a better work environment - How HR and HD work together - HD curriculum and career paths - The importance of ethics in companies and investments - How Environmental Social Governance improves profitability - HD within the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) - HR practices in Western vs. non-Western nations - How to create an organization that prioritizes employee well-being - If and how HD can coexist with capitalism - And other topics... Dr. Bob Aubrey is a human development consultant, author, educator, social entrepreneur, and leadership advisor whose work has spanned more than 25 countries across six continents. He is the Founder and Chair of the Advisory Board of the ASEAN Human Development Organisation (AHDO) and the Managing Director of Bob Aubrey Associates. Bob has authored numerous books on human development and leadership, including Human Development Careers: Leading the Future of Work, one of the first books dedicated to careers in human development, and The Ethics of ASEAN. Through his writing, consulting, and educational initiatives, he continues to advance the field of human development across Southeast Asia and beyond. Resources mentioned: Human Development Careers, by Bob Aubrey: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Development-Careers-Leading-Future-ebook/dp/B08QJ1BS98 Measure of Man, by Bob Aubrey: https://www.amazon.com/Measure-Man-Leading-Human-Development-ebook/dp/B014IF1W36 The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn: https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-50th-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B007USH7J2 Human Resource Champions, by David Ulrich: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Resource-Champions-David-Ulrich/dp/0875847196 Connect with Bob: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobaubrey/ ASEAN Human Development Organisation: https://www.aseanhdo.com/about Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E192
June 30 · 1 hr 6 min
Teal Organizations: A Better Way to Organize Work | Matthew Spaur
Most organizations are built around hierarchy, clear reporting lines, and top-down control. But a growing number are experimenting with a different way of organizing work through self-management, distributed authority, and evolving purpose. As more organizations experiment with alternatives to traditional management, Matthew Spaur has spent years studying Teal organizations and what actually happens when hierarchy gives way to self-management. In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss what Teal really is, how self-managing organizations operate, and whether these post-bureaucratic management models are delivering on their promise. Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher who studies self-managing organizations and emerging models of work. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report, which tracks organizations experimenting with post-bureaucratic management. In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss: - Beyond bureaucracy - What Teal organizations really are - Predict and control vs. sense and respond - Roles instead of job descriptions - Leadership without traditional bosses - Bringing your whole self to work - Organizations with an evolving purpose - Are these models actually working? - AI and the future of management - And other topics… Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher focused on emerging models of organization and management. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report, a global study of organizations experimenting with self-management and other post-bureaucratic management practices. Through his consulting work, Matthew helps organizations communicate their ideas, adapt to change, and rethink how work is organized. Resources Mentioned: Reinventing Organizations, by Frederic Laloux: https://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Organizations-Creating-Inspired-Consciousness/dp/2960133501 Holacracy: The New Management System for a Rapidly Changing World, by Brian J. Robertson: https://www.amazon.com/Holacracy-Management-System-Rapidly-Changing/dp/162779428X Connect with Matthew: Official website: https://matthewspaur.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewspaur/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
June 23 · 1 hr 14 min
Experience Design: Creating More Meaningful Work | Abraham Burickson, Revisited
Twenty years ago, Abraham Burickson and his collaborators asked a simple question: what if a work of art were designed for just one person? Instead of creating experiences for the masses, they spent months crafting deeply personal journeys for an audience of one. That experiment grew into a new way of thinking about design, participation, and transformation. In this revisited episode, Dart and Abraham discuss what those lessons can teach us about management, why experience cannot be fully designed, and how organizations can become platforms for people to create meaning together. Abraham Burickson is an author, speaker, and experience designer who has spent more than two decades exploring how designed experiences can transform people. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works and the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto. In this episode, Dart and Abraham discuss: - How to create a transformative experience for a single individual - Can managers be experience designers? - Why experience is not designable - How to implement experience design at work - Baking experiences within static products - Designing for transformation - Work as a shared experience - The origin story and myths of organizations - And other topics… Abraham Burickson is an author, experience designer, and artist who has spent more than two decades exploring how design shapes human experience. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works, where he creates immersive performances for audiences of one, and co-directs the Experience Design Certificate Program. Trained in architecture at Cornell University, his work spans art, design, education, and consulting. He is the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto and co-author of Odyssey Works: Transformative Experiences for an Audience of One. Resources mentioned: Experience Design, by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Design-Participatory-Abraham-Burickson/dp/0300269471 Odyssey Works, by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Works-Transformative-Experiences-Audience/dp/1616895152 The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227 Connect with Abraham: https://www.abrahamburickson.com/ https://www.owprograms.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E191
June 16 · 1 hr 6 min
Building Organizations for a Future That Doesn't Fit the Past | Rishad Tobaccowala
Rishad Tobaccowala has spent much of his career breaking out of boxes. First it was the spreadsheet and the idea that organizations can be managed through numbers alone. Then it was the office and the assumptions built into how we supervise and coordinate work. More recently, he has turned his attention to the broader structures that shape how we work and learn. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss the limits of measurement, management as a zone of control versus a zone of influence, and why the future may not fit inside the containers we inherited from the past. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss: - The containers that shape our thinking - Why spreadsheets can blind us - When measurement becomes the mission - Talent without opportunity - The office as a management tool - Control versus influence - Why companies become zoos - What CEOs say about AI - Why people resist transformation - Choosing with our hearts, not our heads - And other topics… Rishad Tobaccowala is an author, advisor, speaker, and teacher focused on helping people and organizations thrive in times of change. He is the author of Rethinking Work and Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data. Rishad spent nearly four decades at Publicis Groupe, where he served as Global Chief Strategist and Chief Growth Officer. Today he advises leaders around the world on leadership, innovation, technology, and the future of work. He also writes The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past, a newsletter on change and reinvention. Resources Mentioned: Rishad’s Book, Rethinking Work: https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Work-Seismic-Changes-Where/dp/1400249309 Rishad’s Book, Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data: https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Soul-Business-Staying-Human/dp/1400210542 Rishad’s Newsletter, The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past: https://rishad.substack.com/ Connect with Rishad: Official website: https://rishadtobaccowala.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishadtobaccowala/ Twitter/X: https://x.com/rishad Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
June 9 · 1 hr 11 min
Talentism: Building Organizations Around Human Potential | Jeff Hunter, Revisited
After years leading recruiting and talent systems at companies like Bridgewater, Electronic Arts, and Dolby, Jeff Hunter came to believe that many of our assumptions about talent, hiring, and performance are fundamentally wrong. The problem is not that people lack potential. The problem is that the systems around them often fail to recognize or develop it. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff discuss what gets in the way of human potential and what organizations can do differently. Prior to founding Talentism, Jeff served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held leadership roles at Electronic Arts and Dolby. His work has focused on designing and scaling systems that help people learn, grow, and perform at their best. In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss: - What limits human potential - Why talent matters more than capital - The hidden flaws in hiring - Why skills can be misleading - What Bridgewater taught Jeff - The problem with managing people - How systems shape behavior - Why context changes everything - The challenge of hiring for values - What great organizations do differently - And other topics… Jeff Hunter is founder and CEO of Talentism, a company that helps leaders build organizations that unlock human potential. Previously, he served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held senior talent leadership roles in the technology industry. His work focuses on helping organizations design systems that enable people to learn, grow, and perform at their best. Connect with Jeff: Website: www.talentism.com Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E190
June 2 · 1 hr 1 min
Beyond Collective Impact: What It Really Takes to Change a System | John Kania
Many of the problems we care most about cannot be solved by a single organization. That insight helped John Kania develop Collective Impact, a framework for bringing people together around shared goals. But over time, Kania noticed that coordination alone was not enough. Even when groups made progress, the deeper patterns of the system often remained unchanged. In this episode, Dart and John discuss the evolution of systems change thinking and why lasting change requires more than alignment, strategy, and good intentions. John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit that develops new approaches to collaboration and systems change. He is a leading thinker on collective impact, systems leadership, and the relational work of creating social change. In this episode, Dart and John discuss: - Problems no one can solve alone - Why good intentions often fail - The limits of coordination - What keeps systems stuck - The hidden power of mental models - Why relationships drive change - The challenge of sharing power - What leadership looks like in uncertainty - The role of healing in systems change - Why changing systems means changing ourselves - Building islands of coherence - And other topics… John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit focused on advancing transformational systems change practices. He previously served as Global Managing Director of FSG, where he helped develop and popularize the concept of collective impact. John is co-author of the influential Stanford Social Innovation Review articles Collective Impact, The Dawn of System Leadership, and The Relational Work of Systems Change, as well as The Water of Systems Change. His work focuses on helping people and organizations collaborate across boundaries to address complex social challenges. Resources Mentioned: Collective Impact, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/collective_impact The Dawn of System Leadership, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadership The Relational Work of Systems Change, by John Kania, Jennifer Splansky Juster, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_relational_work_of_systems_change The Water of Systems Change, by David Peter Stroh, John Kania, Mark Kramer, and others: https://www.fsg.org/resource/water_of_systems_change/ Collective Change Lab: https://collectivechangelab.org/ Connect with John: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-kania-1a294020/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
May 26 · 1 hr 2 min
How Treating Employees Like Customers Transforms Performance and Belonging | Mark LeBusque, Revisited
After becoming painfully aware that he cared more about the numbers than the well-being of his employees, Mark LeBusque began to question his management philosophy. An insight to start thinking of his employees like customers helped Mark breakout of the "employees as inputs to production" model that previously informed his thinking. With this shift in management style, Mark was able to lead his team to unprecedented levels of growth and a new found sense of belonging. In this revisited episode, Dart and Mark discuss management, belonging, emotional labor, and what happens when leaders stop treating work as a system to control and start treating it as a human relationship. Mark is internationally known as the Human Manager. He is a Harvard-trained speaker, facilitator, mentor, coach, and author focused on making businesses more human-centric. In this episode Dart and Mark discuss: - Why results can hide bad management - What happens when people feel like inputs - Why belonging changes how people work - Why management is really relationship work - How trust changes team performance - Why discomfort can lead to growth - The difference between metrics and meaning - How leaders create psychological safety - Why some workplaces make people feel invisible - What work costs us emotionally - And other topics… Mark LeBusque is an Australian speaker, facilitator, coach, and author known for his work on human-centered leadership and workplace culture. After more than 25 years in sales, operations, and executive leadership roles, he developed his “Human Manager” philosophy, which focuses on belonging, trust, and human connection at work. He is the author of Being Human and The Little Book of Human, and works with leaders and organizations around the world to build healthier workplace relationships and cultures. Resources mentioned: Being Human: Why Robots Are Not the Answer to Business Success, by Mark LeBusque: https://www.amazon.com/Being-Human-Robots-Business-Success/dp/0995429618 Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed, by James C. Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153 Connect with: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marklebusque?originalSubdomain=au Website: https://marklebusque.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E189
May 19 · 1 hr 5 min
Moral Economics: Where Human Values Shape Markets | Alvin Roth
A kidney transplant does not work like buying a gallon of milk. Neither does hiring or getting into a medical residency. In these markets, both sides care deeply about who they end up with, and a good outcome depends on more than money. Alvin Roth has spent his career studying what makes those systems succeed or fail. His work designing kidney exchange programs showed that even when people desperately want to help each other, the market can still break down unless the rules create the right kind of match. In this episode, Dart and Al discuss matching markets, moral economics, and the hidden rules that shape opportunity, fairness, and work itself. Alvin Roth is an economist and professor at Stanford University best known for his work on market design and matching theory. He received the 2012 Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences for his work on stable matching and the design of markets used in medical residencies, school choice, and kidney exchange. In this episode, Dart and Al discuss: - Why some markets depend on matching - Why fit matters more than money - What makes a market stable - Why real markets are messy - The difference between theory and engineering - What “repugnant transactions” are - Why societies ban some exchanges - How social norms shape markets - Why work is also a matching problem - And other topics… Alvin Roth is the Craig and Susan McCaw Professor of Economics at Stanford University and recipient of the 2012 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, awarded with Lloyd Shapley for the theory of stable allocations and the practice of market design. His work has helped design matching systems for medical residencies, public school admissions, and kidney exchange programs. He is the author of Who Gets What — and Why and Moral Economics: Why Good and Bad Markets Exist. Resources Mentioned: Al’s Book, Moral Economics: Why Good and Bad Markets Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Economics-Good-Markets-Exist/dp/1324076445 Al’s Book, Who Gets What — and Why: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Gets-What-Why-Matchmaking/dp/0544705299 Connect with Al: Stanford profile: https://profiles.stanford.edu/alvin-roth Market Design Blog: https://marketdesigner.blogspot.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
May 12 · 1 hr 6 min
Team Chemistry: The Intangible Forces That Make Teams Win | Joan Ryan, Revisited
When Joan Ryan stepped into the locker room to conduct her first post-game interview as a sports journalist, she was all but kicked out by the players. Feeling both unwelcome and undeterred, she made a firm decision to stick around and make a name for herself as one of the first female sports columnists in the country. Intrigued by the concept of team chemistry, Joan wrote Intangibles, where she shares what team chemistry really is, how to identify it, and how to use it to elevate the performance of any entity, from sports to businesses and beyond. In this revisited episode, Joan and Dart explore the hidden forces behind great teams, why chemistry matters more than most people think, and how human connection can elevate performance. Joan Ryan is an award-winning journalist, speaker, author, and media consultant with the San Francisco Giants. Her work has been featured on Oprah, 60 Minutes, the Today Show, People magazine, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and Time Magazine. In this episode, Dart and Joan discuss: - Whether or not team chemistry exists - How team chemistry elevates performance - The neurophysiology of human connection - The essential archetypes within team chemistry - Connecting over emotions vs. connecting over a shared task - How chemistry and skills affect the likelihood of team success - Using an intangible concept to create tangible results - And other topics… Joan Ryan is an award-winning journalist, speaker, author, and media consultant with the San Francisco Giants. She pioneered sports journalism as one of the first female sports columnists in the country; her work has earned 13 Associated Press Sports Editors Awards, the Women’s Sports Foundation’s Journalism Award, and the Edgar A. Poe Award from the White House Correspondents Association, among others. As an author, Joan has been featured on Oprah, 60 Minutes, the Today Show, People magazine, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and Time Magazine. Her expansive career inspired her book, Intangibles: Unlocking the Science and Soul of Team Chemistry, which draws from hundreds of interviews to understand the phenomenon known as team chemistry. Resources mentioned: Intangibles, by Joan Ryan: https://www.amazon.com/Intangibles-Unlocking-Science-Soul-Chemistry/dp/B086KJFGBW Organizing Genius, by Warren Bennis and Patricia Ward Biederman: https://www.amazon.com/Organizing-Genius-Secrets-Creative-Collaboration/dp/0201339897 Connect with Joan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joan-ryan-intangibles/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.
S1 · E188
May 5 · 1 hr 10 min
The Hidden Cost of Leaving Faith Outside Work | Elaine Ecklund
Most workplaces don’t quite know what to do with faith. It often gets simplified, avoided, or treated as something too divisive to bring into professional life. Elaine Ecklund studies what happens when people try to leave that part of themselves outside the workplace, and what is lost when they do. Her research shows that faith is rarely just about religion. It becomes a window into bigger tensions around ethics, identity, belonging, and the struggle to feel fully present at work. In this episode, Dart and Elaine discuss how faith shapes the experience of work, why workplaces often misunderstand religion, and what designing for people of faith can teach us about designing work for everyone. Elaine Ecklund is a sociologist at Rice University and director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. She studies religion, work, science, and how people make meaning in everyday life. In this episode, Dart and Elaine discuss: - Why workplaces avoid conversations about faith - What happens when belief stays hidden - Faith as part of bringing one's whole self - How people decide what is ethical at work - The difference between personal and systems morality - Why some people see work as a calling - The risks of feeling called to work - How minority identity shapes belonging - Why discrimination depends on workplace context - How churches shape ideas about work - How religion and science overlap - And other topics… Elaine Howard Ecklund is the Herbert S. Autrey Chair in Social Sciences and professor of sociology at Rice University. She is also the founding director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. Her research explores how people’s deepest beliefs shape work, science, leadership, and civic life. She is the author of several books, including Religion in a Changing Workplace, Working for Better: A New Approach to Faith at Work, and Why Science and Faith Need Each Other: Eight Shared Values That Move Us Beyond Fear. Resources Mentioned: Elaine’s Books; Working for Better: A New Approach to Faith at Work: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Better-Approach-Faith-Work/dp/1514011263 Religion in a Changing Workplace: https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Workplace-Scheitle/dp/0197675018 Why Science and Faith Need Each Other: Eight Shared Values That Move Us Beyond Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Science-Faith-Need-Each-Other/dp/1587434369 Connect with Elaine: Official website: https://www.elainehowardecklund.com/ Rice University profile: https://profiles.rice.edu/faculty/elaine-howard-ecklund LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elaine-howard-ecklund/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

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