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Messy Social Work

Rich and Tim

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges.


Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work.


Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure.


Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships.


Because social work isn't neat.


It's messy.



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  • 32 episodes
  • weekly
  • Avg 59 min
  • English

Episodes 32

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  • Friday · 1 hr 5 min

    Azariah Hope on Trauma, Loss, Recovery and the support that made the difference

    What happens when a parent who has spent much of their own childhood in care finds themselves raising children while carrying unprocessed trauma, poverty, instability and loss? In this powerful episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by Azariah Hope, lived experience consultant, trainer, advocate and mother of four, alongside Rebecca Carr-Hopkins, social worker, trainer and attachment specialist. Azariah shares her remarkable and deeply moving story: growing up in and out of care under Section 20 arrangements, experiencing abuse, multiple foster placements, becoming a mother at fifteen, losing two children to care proceedings and adoption, and eventually finding a path towards recovery and reunification through intensive therapeutic support. Together, the conversation explores: The reality of growing up in care and moving between twelve foster placements Trauma, survival strategies and the hidden impact of childhood adversity Teenage parenthood and the search for love, belonging and purpose Domestic abuse, mental health struggles and the removal of children What it feels like to be assessed, judged and supported by professionals The difference that persistent, relationship-based social work can make Therapeutic interventions that helped create lasting change The role and responsibility of the "corporate parent" Why timing matters, but access to support matters even more How lived experience can challenge and transform social work practice Throughout the episode, Azariah speaks with extraordinary honesty about the pain of loss, the complexity of change, and the professionals who refused to give up on her when it mattered most. This is a conversation about accountability, hope and what becomes possible when services move beyond managing risk and begin genuinely working alongside families. A powerful reminder that recovery is rarely a straight line, and that meaningful change happens when people are seen, supported and believed in.

  • November 5 · 46 min

    Power, participation and the hidden dynamics of meetings.

    What makes a good meeting? Why do some people leave feeling heard, while others leave feeling silenced, confused or defeated? In this episode of Messy Social Work, Richard and Tim explore the hidden craft of facilitation. Starting with stories of addiction, organisational systems and Jung's warning about concepts becoming a substitute for real experience, they dive into what actually happens inside meetings. Drawing on practice wisdom, family experiences and A Facilitator's Guide to Participatory Decision-Making, they discuss power, silence, conflict, professional language, disagreement, and the small conversational skills that can make all the difference. From child protection conferences to team meetings, this is a conversation about creating spaces where people can think together, speak honestly and make decisions that matter.

  • October 23 · 1 hr 1 min

    A conversation about grief, belonging, and discovering who you are beyond caring for everyone else

    What happens when the strategies that helped us survive become the very things that stop us from being seen? In this deeply moving conversation, Sharon shares her extraordinary life story: the disappearance of her mother when she was a child, growing up amid uncertainty and loss, caring for a brother she fiercely loved, navigating addiction within her family, and facing grief that defies easy words. Together, we explore survival, identity, belonging, and the cost of always being the one who holds everything together. Sharon reflects on the "persona" she created to cope, the painful questions left unanswered, and what it means to begin discovering who you are when your life has been spent caring for everyone else. This is a conversation about loss, resilience, love, and learning that you deserve the same compassion you offer to others.

  • October 16 · 56 min

    What social workers need to know about working with fathers

    In this episode of Messy Social Work, Tim and Rich begin with a conversation about shame, connection, and the ways we "make our own social worlds". Reflecting on Margaret Wheatley's work, they explore how small acts of openness can shape relationships, meetings, and everyday interactions. They are then joined by Jordel Bennett, fatherhood advocate, trainer, family group decision-making facilitator and lived-experience practitioner. Drawing on his experience growing up in London as a Black Caribbean man, becoming a young father, studying law, and supporting fathers navigating child protection and family court processes, Jordel offers a powerful perspective on how fathers experience helping systems. Together they discuss: Why fathers are often treated as an "add-on" rather than a core part of family life Trust, risk and why some fathers find it difficult to engage with professionals The difference between being child-focused and case-focused How social workers can build stronger relationships with fathers and paternal families The role of family networks, identity and belonging in children's lives The importance of curiosity, humanity and inclusive practice The episode concludes with a reading from Rainer Maria Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet, reflecting on fear, sadness and the possibility that what troubles us most may be asking for understanding rather than avoidance. "Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love." A thoughtful conversation about fathers, relationships, participation, and what more inclusive social work might look like.

  • October 13 · 50 min

    Dr Beverly Barnett-Jones MBE on power, community and the purpose of social work

    What is social work really for? In this special episode, Rich and Tim sit down with Dr Beverly Barnett-Jones MBE, one of the most influential voices in British social work, for a conversation that spans personal history, political activism, healing, community, and the future of the profession. Beverly reflects on how her experiences as a child growing up in a kinship arrangement, her identity as a Black British woman of Windrush heritage, and decades of frontline and leadership experience shaped her approach as a social worker, advocate, and what she describes as a "caring disruptor." Together, the conversation explores the work of social work pioneer Bertha Capen Reynolds, whose writing on power, poverty, dignity, and community still feels startlingly relevant today. They discuss social work's relationship with activism, the dangers of dependency narratives, the importance of walking alongside families, and whether social workers should see themselves as witnesses, healers, or agents of social change. Along the way, Beverly speaks candidly about therapy, faith, forgiveness, racial inequality, professional power, and her growing conviction that communities themselves must play a greater role in shaping the systems that affect their children and families. This is a rich, thoughtful conversation about social work's past, present and future, and a reminder that some of the most important work happens not in offices or procedures, but at the crossroads of ordinary life. Topics include: Bertha Capen Reynolds and Social Work and Social Living Social work as activism and advocacy Race, identity and the care system Healing, therapy, faith and forgiveness Power, dependency and professional authority Co-production and community leadership What it means to truly walk alongside families “You can't be a witness unless you do something.” – Beverly Barnett-Jones

  • October 4 · 55 min

    Episode 100: One hundred episodes of Messy Social Work

    In this special 100th episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich Devine and Tim Fisher hit pause to reflect on the journey so far. Armed with a list of 100 AI-generated questions inspired by their previous episodes, they take each other on a whistle-stop tour through five years of conversations, debates, learning, and occasional technical disasters. Together they explore what they've learned from speaking with academics, practitioners, people with lived experience, and thought leaders from across and beyond social work. They discuss the limits of concepts such as trauma-informed practice, the importance of professional curiosity, systemic thinking, humility, relationships, and the enduring complexity of child protection work. Along the way, they revisit some of their most memorable guests, reflect on how the podcast has evolved, share what drives each other slightly mad, and wrestle with one of the biggest questions of all: what is social work actually for? Part celebration, part stocktake, and part conversation between two friends who have spent 100 episodes thinking out loud together, this episode offers a candid glimpse behind the scenes of the podcast and the ideas that continue to shape it. Thank you to everyone who has listened, contributed, challenged, shared, and joined us for the journey so far.

  • September 28 · 1 hr 6 min

    Terri-Anne on care experience, loneliness and the courage to challenge patterns passed down through generations

    In this episode of This Is Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined once again by care-experienced advocate, project worker and Churchill Fellow, Terri-Anne Hamer. Terri-Anne shares insights from her Churchill Fellowship research exploring how we break intergenerational cycles of child removal. From Denmark to Jamaica, her travels challenged assumptions and revealed a surprisingly consistent message: while services matter, what often makes the greatest difference is belonging, community and meaningful relationships. Together, they explore care experience, loneliness, identity, parenting, and the courage required to challenge patterns passed down through generations. Terri-Anne reflects on the role of her own "village" in helping her build a different future for her children, and makes a compelling case for support that extends beyond childhood and into adulthood. Along the way, the conversation touches on relational leadership, the unseen work of relationships, internalised shame, and why breaking cycles is rarely something people achieve alone. A thoughtful, moving and hopeful discussion about what becomes possible when we stop asking, "What's wrong with people?" and start asking, "Who stands alongside them?" Topics discussed: Breaking intergenerational cycles of child removal Care experience and parenting The Churchill Fellowship journey Relational practice and relational activism Loneliness, belonging and community The importance of "the village" Supporting care-experienced adults Leadership, systems and creating the conditions for change "If it takes a village to raise a child, why does the village disappear when that child becomes an adult?" - Terri-Anne Hamer

  • September 18 · 59 min

    "I call her my second mum" The extraordinary relationship between care leaver Shakira and her Personal Advisor, Sarah.

    What difference can one consistent relationship make in a young person's life? In this moving and deeply honest episode, Rich and Tim are joined by care leaver Shakira Peart and her Personal Advisor Sarah Fisher. Together, they reflect on a seven-year relationship that has endured through trauma, loss, domestic abuse, homelessness, mental health challenges, parenting struggles, and ultimately, remarkable personal growth. Shakira speaks candidly about losing her mum at 14, living with undiagnosed autism, ADHD and bipolar disorder, surviving abusive relationships, and the painful experience of having her first two children removed from her care. She also shares how becoming a mother to her daughter Aurora, who has significant additional needs, has helped her make sense of her own experiences and find new strength and purpose. At the heart of the conversation is Sarah's unwavering presence. This episode shines a light on the vital role Personal Advisors play in the lives of care-experienced young people: offering consistency, hope, practical support, and a relationship that doesn't disappear when life gets messy. As Shakira prepares to graduate with a first-class Psychology degree, accompanied by the Personal Advisor she affectionately calls her "second mum", this is a powerful story about resilience, recovery, and the transformative impact of someone refusing to give up on you. Content note: This episode contains discussions about bereavement, domestic abuse, mental health difficulties, self-harm, trauma, and child removal.

  • September 11 · 1 hr 11 min

    What social workers get wrong in court: Insights from family barrister Gemma Chapman

    In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy. Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court. The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children. We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court. A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families. Key themes: Family justice and advocacy Giving evidence in court What makes an effective social worker Social Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs) Disclosure versus allegations Working alongside legal professionals Supporting children and families Learning from practice and experience Guest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

  • September 3 · 55 min

    Rich and Tim relational skills, networks, theory and leadership in Family Group Decision Making

    In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making. The conversation explores: The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety. The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections. The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture. Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities. Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice. Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

  • August 30 · 53 min

    Rich and Tim on Family Group Decision Making: Power, participation and family leadership

    In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today. Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities. The conversation explores: The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them. How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life. The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making. The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation. A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair. Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

  • August 19 · 1 hr 2 min

    Peter Block: relationships, resistance and the relevance of 'Flawless Consulting'

    Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services? In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract. Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change. Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published. Topics include: Contracting for real accountability Leading change without direct authority Working with resistance rather than against it Internal versus external consulting Avoiding the "expert" trap Moving from compliance to commitment Embedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-Making A conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

  • July 17 · 54 min

    Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • July 13 · 36 min

    Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection

    Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

  • July 7 · 42 min

    Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice

    In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

  • June 26 · 1 hr 15 min

    Ex-undercover police officer on why the war on drugs is failing

    In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here: https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods https://www.neilwoods.net/ His book is available online and on audible

  • June 19 · 1 hr 9 min

    Gareth K Thomas, foster carer, on trauma informed parenting

    In this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice. Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about how trauma shows up in behaviour, how carers can make sense of what they’re seeing, and the importance of staying curious, compassionate, and regulated in the face of difficult moments. The conversation also explores: What trauma-informed care looks like day-to-day The importance of relationships, trust, and consistency Supporting children without losing sight of yourself The wider system around foster care - what helps and what gets in the way As ever, this is a grounded and thoughtful discussion that keeps the focus on real-life practice, not theory alone. Gareth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethkthomas/ Gareth's website: https://garethkthomas.com/ https://www.clrfd.com/48/ Gareth's forthcoming book https://a-z-book.com/

  • June 12 · 1 hr 2 min

    Headlines from Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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