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Leadermorphosis

Lisa Gill and Tuff Leadership Training

Leadermorphosis is a podcast exploring the emerging world of self-managing teams and progressive organisations. Hosted by Lisa Gill, who was named on the Thinkers50 Radar 2020 list, each episode features a guest thought leader or practitioner offering a unique perspective on new and innovative ways of working.

"Turning self-managed teams from a good idea into reality is a big challenge and Lisa Gill is leading the way in making it happen."
– Thinkers50

Leadermorphosis is powered by Tuff Leadership Training, a team of consultants and coaches who specialise in transformational leadership training, shifting working climates and supporting organisations to become self-managing.

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  • 20 episodes
  • every few months
  • Avg 1 hr 3 min
  • English

Episodes 20

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  • S1 · E106
    September 1 · 1 hr 5 min

    Ep. 106 Isaac Getz on why the CEO's ego is the biggest obstacle to liberated companies

    Isaac Getz is a business philosopher and professor at ESCP Business School, and the co-author, with Brian Carney, of Freedom, Inc., the book that gave us the idea of the liberated company and sparked a movement that included 500 organisations at its peak. We talk about why a liberated company is a philosophy rather than a blueprint, and what inner work this asks of a leader. We also cover why liberated companies tolerate tries rather than errors, why you uncover your values rather than invent them, and why none of this is laissez-faire. Resources: Freedom, Inc. book site "The rarest commodity is leadership without ego" TEDx talk by Leadership Without Ego book co-author and liberating leader Bob Davids "Liberating leadership: How the initiative-freeing radical organizational form has been successfully adopted" seminal California Management Review article "The liberated company theoretical concept: current issues and the intimidating complexity of organizational design" Journal of Organization Design article Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux, author of Reinventing Organisations Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee on what the academic world is learning about decentralised organisations Ep. 12 with Karin Tenelius, co-founder of Tuff

  • S1 · E105
    July 8 · 54 min

    Ep. 105 Michael Bungay Stanier on building the best possible relationship at work

    Michael Bungay Stanier returns to Leadermorphosis, and this time we get right into the messy, human heart of work: our relationships. Michael is the author of the bestselling The Coaching Habit and, most recently, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He is on a mission to un-weird the soft stuff, to make better working relationships something we build on purpose rather than leave to chance. We talk about why the quality of your working relationships is so crucial for happiness and success, and about what Michael calls the Best Possible Relationship: one that is safe, vital and repairable. We get into how to upgrade our relationships, including how to have healthy conflict, as well as misunderstandings of psychological safety. Resources: Check out the 10th anniversary edition of Michael's book The Coaching Habit The Change Signal episode with Liane Davey about why we need more conflict, not less The Enemies Project YouTube channel we mentioned Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 68 - my first conversation with Michael about being more coaching Ep. 45 with Prof. Amy Edmondson Ep. 100 with my colleagues from Tuff about pebbles conversations and some of our other practices

  • S1 · E104
    June 12 · 1 hr 10 min

    Ep. 104 Angela Williamson on the inner and outer development work at self-managing care organisation Chorus

    Chorus was born out of the merger of three traditionally structured care organisations in 2017, but today its 1,000 employees work in 20+ self-managing, local teams. Strategic Coach Angela Williamson share this remarkable transformation story and how inner development – and not just structural development – has been key. Chorus began as an experiment asking the question: "What if the people closest to the work were trusted to make most decisions themselves?" Resources: Corporate Rebels' blog about Chorus and their organisational model Chorus website https://chorus.org.au/ Mia Mingus on the Nothing Never Happens podcast talking about reimagining accountability My blog about the tyranny of the inner boss Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 69 with Jos de Blok, founder of Buurtzorg Ep. 26 with the nurses at Buurtzorg Ep. 96 with Xavier Costa about love in self-managing organisations Ep. 67 with Andy Brogan and Helen Sanderson about Confirmation Practices Ep. 85 with Bernadette Wesley about Deliberately Developmental Organisations

  • S1 · E103
    April 20 · 1 hr 10 min

    Ep. 103 Rodrigo Ventre on emancipating 1,000 people (and himself) at a Brazilian waste-management company

    If you ask employees at EPPO who the CEO is, they will answer: there is no CEO! In this episode, Rodrigo Ventre shares the story of transforming his father's company into a self-managing organisation. We talk about his lifelong passion for human development and the increasingly radical experiments he has encouraged in the domains of business, culture, and governance. It was not an easy journey, but today EPPO is celebrated in Brazil for its innovative organisational model and being an inspiring place to work. This episode is a warts-and-all story including insights from a systems level, but also from Rodrigo as a father and a human being. Resources: The EPPO case study from INSEAD More about Target Teal in Brazil (where you can also learn more about Organic Organization or O2) Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 70 with Ravi Resck on the future of work movement in Brazil Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee on what the academic world is learning about decentralised organisations Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux, author of Reinventing Organisations

  • S1 · E102
    March 5 · 1 hr 1 min

    Ep. 102 Natacha Neumann on why org transformation is 80 percent mindset, 20 percent structure

    Natacha is the co-founder of Freche Freunde, a leading children's healthy snacks brand. She shares insights from the two-year transformation journey she led at the 80-person company – what she says were the hardest two years of her life. Through experiments with Holacracy and self-management, the biggest challenge turned out to be her own personal development. In this honest and beautiful story, Natacha shares the ups and downs of the process and what her next adventures will be. Resources: Natacha's conversation with friend of the pod Manuel Küblböck Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 94 with SINA, Uganda

  • S1 · E101
    January 21 · 1 hr 5 min

    Ep. 101 Abhijith HK and Vidhya Abhijith from Codewave on scaling culture without hierarchy

    Abhijith HK and Vidhya Abhijith are co-founders of Codewave, a digital innovation company in India with over 200 employees and zero hierarchy. In this episode, we explore how they built a self-managing organisation from intuition, their peer-based feedback system called Peerly, and how they moved from "ruinous empathy" to radical candor. We also discuss scaling through "Fractas" (mini startups within the company), staying bootstrapped to protect culture, and the personal growth required of founders on this journey. Resources: Link to Codewave's handbook Corporate Rebels' blog about Codewave Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee

  • S1 · E100
    Dec 5, 2025 · 1 hr 20 min

    Ep. 100 Eva, Trevor and Kajsa from Tuff on the messy beauty of working in a self-managing organisation

    For episode 100, Lisa talks with her colleagues Eva Vilella, Trevor Hudson, and Kajsa Thelander Sadio from Tuff Leadership Training about what it's really like to work inside a self-managing organisation. They explore how working at Tuff has transformed each of them, their culture of continuous development with practices like "pebbles" and "mooseheads," and the genuine challenges alongside the beauty – from coordination difficulties to the loneliness of autonomy. A rare inside look at self-management with all its complexity, humor, and humanity. Resources: Moose Heads on the Table – book by Lisa and Karin from Tuff Lisa's blog, 'The tyranny of the inner boss' Trevor's blog about relationship conversations at work Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 12 with Karin Tenelius, co-founder of Tuff Ep. 85 with Bernadette Wesley on Deliberately Developmental Organisations

  • S1 · E99
    Sep 8, 2025 · 1 hr 21 min

    Ep. 99 Perttu Salovaara on Radically Decentralised Organisations and leaderless leadership

    If we want to practise alternatives to hierarchy, what needs to be in place? Perttu has twenty years' experience as an organisational consultant and I've been really enjoying his research papers on Radically Decentralised Organisations. We talk about the four things needed for a Radically Decentralised Organisation to be sustainable, leaderless leadership, group dynamics we need to be aware of, and some interesting case studies in Finland, particularly in the public sector. Resources: Perttu's paper, "Leaderless Leadership in Radically Decentralised Organisations" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/380008457_Leaderless_leadership_in_radically_decentralized_organizations Perttu's website: https://perttusalovaara.com/en/ Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan Ep. 78 with Sofia and Luís from Mindera Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee

  • S1 · E98
    Aug 8, 2025 · 1 hr 10 min

    Ep. 98 Timea Kristof on the factors for a successful succession process

    Handing the baton over to someone else can be risky, especially when it's your company you're handing over. Timea Kristof shares her research on six key factors necessary for a successful succession process to happen, and one of the most important factors might surprise you. It's love. Timea shares insights from her research, including examples of organisations she interviewed such as a family business with three generations of failed successions, as well as her own lived experience of handovers. We also discuss Peter Koenig's Source Work and how this is a helpful lens when thinking about succession. And we also share some personal learning moments as people pleasers in recovery! Resources: Timea's website and research https://www.gekko.consulting/founder-succession-research/ The webinar recording of Timea presenting her research for ConsciousU Read more about Source Work: Tom Nixon's book Work with Source A Little Red Book About Source by Stefan Merckelbach Nadja Taranczewski's programme, CU Source: https://www.conscious-u.com/cusource/ Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 5 with Tom Nixon

  • S1 · E97
    Jul 25, 2025 · 1 hr 10 min

    Ep. 97 Allan Rhodes on organisational gardening and Konsileo

    Allan Rhodes is Chief People Officer at teal-inspired insurance broker Konsileo. He shares what he's learned over the last three years about helping to design a self-managing organisation, including how to onboard people into a totally new way of working. We also talk about his favourite metaphor of organisational gardening. We can be inspired by other gardens and gardeners, but what will grow best in our unique soil and climate? Allan has dual nationality as a Mexican Englishman so he shares observations on the two cultures having experienced communities exploring progressive ways of organising in both Latin America and the UK. Resources: Konsileo's website: https://konsileo.com/ Allan's blogs about Organisational Gardening Latin American networks and organisations promoting self-management: Co-crealia: https://www.linkedin.com/company/cocrealia/ Pancho Mora's podcast, Autogestión: https://panchomora.life/ Organizaciones Brillantes: https://www.organizacionesbrillantes.com/el-movimiento Brave Job: https://www.brave-job.com/home/ CultureSee: https://www.culturesee.com/ Outiopía: https://ouitopia.team/en/ Luis Salas - Polymath - Reinventando a tu Organización (newsletter): https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-salas-0b7b7135/ Encuentro Internacional Teal: https://www.congresointernacionalteal.com/ Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 5 with Tom Nixon Ep. 82 with Mayden, another UK self-managing company Ep. 52 with Jorge Silva from 10Pines, Argentina Ep. 96 with Xavier Costa about the movement in Spain Ep. 33 with Margaret Wheatley

  • S1 · E96
    Jul 10, 2025 · 1 hr 10 min

    Ep. 96 Xavier Costa on lessons from self-managing organisations in Spain

    Why does Spain appear to be a hotbed for progressive organisations lately? Xavier Costa shares three hypotheses: the implementation of the NER self-management approach in over 100 companies, a rich history of cooperatives, and a culture of innovation in the boundaries of Spain. We also talk about lessons learned from Xavier's experience of transforming companies, both with consultancy Full Circle Team, and investment fund Krisos, which buys and transforms companies. How do you rebalance salaries? How do you support former managers? And what is the 'healing' and personal transformation journey needed for self-organisation to work? Resources: Full Circle Team website: https://www.fullcircleteam.es/ Krisos website: https://krisos.eu/ A Corporate Rebels blog about Indaero's 'no managers' experiment My blog from a few years ago about the NER approach My colleague Karin Tenelius' blog where she also interviewed Xavier about the new ways of working movement in Spain Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 53 Dunia Reverter and Jabi Salcedo talk about the NER / K2K approach Ep. 60 Anna Thomson and David Baksh talk about La Fageda

  • S1 · E95
    May 21, 2024 · 57 min

    Ep. 95 Tamila Gresham and Simon Mont from Harmonize on new ways of seeing, being and working together

    The way groups are working together is not working. But introducing new structures alone is not enough. Tamila and Simon talk to me about how we need to develop our ways of seeing, being and working together if we want to act in the highest possible alignment with our vision. A key part of this is using the lens of Power, Belonging and Justice (PBJ) and strengthening our muscle in Conflict Resilience. Strap in for some powerful wisdom, giggles and deep learning. Harmonize is a worker-owned cooperative that helps groups work together through Comprehensive Organizational Development and Analysis (CODA™). Tamila and Simon are the co-founders of Harmonize. Resources: Harmonize's website Harmonize's courses Simon's blog series on the Common Mistakes in Self-Management And his article 'Autopsy of a Failed Holacracy' Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 19 with Simon Mont back in 2018 Ep. 33 with Margaret Wheatley Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan

  • S1 · E94
    Mar 28, 2024 · 54 min

    Ep. 94 Etienne Salborn and Tonny Wamboga on SINA, self-organisation and 'freesponsibility'

    SINA (Social Innovation Academy) is a network of social enterprise incubators in Uganda and neighbouring countries with a mission of supporting marginalised young people to create their own solutions to social problems in their communities.There are currently more than 10 SINA communities which have catalysed 70+ social enterprises and more than 500 jobs. The goal is to create a global movement of 1,000 SINAs and 100,000 social enterprises by 2035. Etienne Salborn, founder, and Tonny Wamboga, Operations Lead, talk to me about SINA's model in which self-organisation plays a central role. How do scholars take on key roles? What is the 'confusion stage'? What are common misconceptions of self-organisation? What are the specific cultural challenges of learning self-organisation in Uganda? We talk about these questions and more in our conversation. Resources: SINA's website: https://www.socialinnovationacademy.org/ More about the SINA framework A case study about SINA (non-academic) An academic master thesis on the agency aspect of scholars in SINA Masters of Social Change, a SINA documentary about refugee activists and social entrepreneurs Etienne on the Out of the Clouds podcast talking about the SINA founding story and the model

  • S1 · E93
    Feb 28, 2024 · 55 min

    Ep. 93 Tirzah Enumah and Mike Arauz from August Public Inc. on psychological safety, equity and inclusion

    In this episode we talk all about psychological safety – the misconceptions, what it actually means in practice, what we can learn about it through an equity lens, and how we can design organisational structures that support it (like decision-making protocols). We also talk about how August does onboarding and creates an adult learning environment through feedback, peer reviews and the role of a 'Development Advocate', plus how they relate to the 'new ways of working' movement right now. Tirzah and Mike are teammates at August Public Inc., an organisation and leadership development and change management firm. Tirzah leads August's Equity & Inclusion practice and Mike is a Founding Partner. Resources: Download the August white paper 'Looking at Psychological Safety Through an Equity Lens' Learn more about August and their other insights via their website Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 45 with Prof. Amy Edmondson Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee about the interpersonal risks research (safe spaces and interaction scripts) Michael Y. Lee's research paper 'Fostering Positive Relational Dynamics in Teams: The Power of Spaces and Interaction Scripts' (Academy of Management Journal, 2020) Book: 'Confronting our Freedom: Leading a Culture of Chosen Accountability and Belonging' by Peter Block and Peter Koestenbaum

  • S1 · E92
    Feb 1, 2024 · 53 min

    Ep. 92 Miki Kashtan and Emma Quayle from NGL on the capacity lens as a path to reinvent ourselves and our organisations

    Miki is the seed founder and Emma a founding member of the Nonviolent Global Liberation community (NGL), which runs entirely as a gift economy. They and NGL as a whole are knee-deep in visionary experimentation about what it would take to realign humanity with life through online and community living experiments. Even without bosses we can still struggle to embody new ways of being together because of our internalised systems of patriarchal conditioning and capitalist thinking. The capacity lens gives us a way to examine this and make more conscious choices together. As Miki puts it, "Everyone who gets into it falls in love with it, because it moves us from rigidity to flexibility, from predictability to emergence, from coercion to willingness, from judgement to tenderness. Who wouldn't want that?" An incredibly valuable episode if you are wrestling with topics like fairness, how to distribute tasks and roles, leadership in a bossless environment, how to avoid burnout or how to deal with overwhelm in the face of huge societal challenges. Resources: Nonviolent Global Liberation website Miki and NGL's learning packet called 'Resource flow systems: from incentive to willingness' Link to capacity lens course (access to video recordings only) Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan on the three shifts

  • S1 · E91
    Sep 26, 2023 · 1 hr 5 min

    Ep. 91 Miquel, Blanca and Pau from Deerns Spain on becoming a self-managing engineering company

    Deerns Spain, a team of around 60 engineers, has been on a transformation journey since March 2020. Inspired by K2K Emocionando, they now work without managers which means that everyone is "creating our company all the time". I talked to Miquel Castellvi (General Coordinator), Blanca Capdevila (People & Culture) and Pau Riera (Commitment Coordinator) who shared stories about how they changed their organisational structure, their self-managing salary process, giving feedback and dealing with conflicts, and the role of the Values and Culture team. Resources: Deerns Spain website Article in El Pais about Deerns Spain and other 'teal' organisations in Spain Miquel and Blanca on the Autogestión con Pancho Mora podcast (in Spanish) Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux Ep. 53 with Jabi and Dunia from K2K Emocionando Ep. 78 with Sofia and Luís from Mindera

  • S1 · E90
    May 31, 2023 · 52 min

    Ep. 90 adrienne maree brown on Emergent Strategy and being in right relationship with change

    I'm thrilled to have adrienne maree brown on the podcast, someone who 'grows ideas in public' through her writing, her podcasts and her music. Ideas like Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, Radical Imagination and Transformative Justice. We talk about what it means to be in right relationship with change, how to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, sustainable relationships, Pleasure Activism, three thoughts about leadership, what adrienne would do if she was mayor of a large city, and finally some of her favourite practices at the moment. Resources: adrienne's website where you can find links to her writing and podcasts Audre Lorde's essay 'Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power' Maurice Mitchell's article 'Building Resilient Organizations: Toward Joy and Durable Power During a Crisis' The Embodiment institute Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity The Chani app Related podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan

  • S1 · E89
    May 10, 2023 · 58 min

    Ep. 89 Ted Rau on parallels between Relationship Anarchy and self-management

    What can the realm of self-management and new ways of working learn from the realm of polyamory, Relationship Anarchy and open relationships? And how can practices in self-organising work teams help us improve our personal relationships? Ted Rau is the co-founder of Sociocracy for All and author of books like 'Who Decides Who Decides?' and 'Many Voices One Song'. In his personal life, he has been in monogamous relationships and, for the last seven years, in open relationships. We explore the parallels across personal and professional relationships, like what it means to 'be in choice', consent decision-making as a mindset more than a process, holding multiple roles, and agreement-making. Resources: The link to buy Ted's books The HBR article I mention, 'The Little Things that Affect Our Work Relationships' Alanna Irving's blog about Relationship Retrospectives Miki Kashtan's blog about flow, decision-making and conflict Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord (wouldn't it be fun to have an equivalent smorgasbord for our work relationships?) Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 27 with Ted Rau Ep. 35 with Alanna Irving

  • S1 · E88
    Apr 25, 2023 · 52 min

    Ep. 88 Jessica and Douglas Rauch from Aquadec on tradesmen and teal

    Douglas Rauch was thinking of selling his construction business until he read Reinventing Organisations by Frederic Laloux. After that, Aquadec went on a transformation journey to becoming a self-managing company. Douglas and his daughter Jessica share the ups and downs of this process over the last five years, including why their initial approach was a spectacular failure, why it was an inner shift that ended up making the difference, and something called "S**t Day." Resources: Jessica and Douglas' talk at Teal Around the World 2023 Jessica and Douglas on The Better Work Australia Podcast The Better Work Australia Podcast website Aquadec's website

  • S1 · E87
    Apr 12, 2023 · 52 min

    Ep. 87 Kimberly Loh on Compassionate Conversations and understanding our patterns in conflicts

    Kimberly Loh works in the worlds of conflict resolution, coaching, embodiment and mindfulness. She is also the co-author of 'Compassionate Conversations: How to Speak and Listen from the Heart.' We talk about learning to be aware of patterns we have when it comes to engaging with conflict, and Kim shares some ground rules for having 'Compassionate Conversations', as well as some really useful self-reflective practices to help us be more conscious of how we show up in conversations, especially 'difficult' ones. We also cover topics like power, hierarchies, and why human beings rarely learn how to 'do' conflict well. Resources: Kim Loh's website How to order the book 'Compassionate Conversations' A link to Kim's course, 'Heart Connections: Strategies for Navigating Conflict & Difference'

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