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The Underground

The Underground Pod

Exploring the future of garden care.

The underground podcast is a place where the disparate worlds of horticulture and marketing collide. Kate Turner, the Gardener Guru and Phil Wright, co-founder of creative agency WrightObara, team up to discover the trailblazers and innovators shaping the future of garden care in the UK.

With content that’s as relevant to start-ups as it would be to established players, we look to cover the hottest topics and trends you need to know. From plants to products, environmental concerns to legislation, we’ll dig deep to bring you the inside story.

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32 episodes
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Avg 43 min
English

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S7 · E9
Wednesday · 28 min
The business behind a million meals | Ricky Towers, British Garden Centres
Running restaurants across more than 80 garden centres means that even the smallest decisions can have enormous consequences. Just changing the thickness of the bread slices from thick to extra thick, for example, was matched with an £80,000 price tag. Recorded live at Glee, Phil Wright talks to Ricky Towers, Group Restaurants Director at British Garden Centres, about the business behind serving well over a million meals a year. From the growing importance of restaurants as footfall drivers to balancing national consistency with local tastes, Ricky shares the challenges of managing catering on such a scale. He also discusses food safety, the technology changing restaurant operations and the occasional menu experiment that doesn't go quite to plan. But perhaps his most important message concerns the customer experience. With the wider hospitality industry under pressure to cut costs, Ricky argues that garden centres need to be careful not to lose the very things that make their restaurants worth visiting.
S7 · E1
November 4 · 33 min
Real progress or just ticking boxes? | Angie Lloyd & Jayne Hickling
The garden industry has made progress in recent years, but how much has really changed? Recorded live at Glee 2026, Kate Turner is joined by freelance marketing consultant Angie Lloyd and Jayne Hickling, The Allotment Cook, for a candid conversation about women in horticulture, career opportunities and the value we place on industry knowledge and experience. From the difference between genuine career progression and simply ticking boxes to the challenges of attracting younger people into horticulture, Angie and Jayne question whether the industry is doing enough to support the people who work within it. The conversation also turns to sustainability, with some frank observations about peat-free growing, the proliferation of plastic products and whether the industry is matching its environmental ambitions with meaningful action. Despite their frustrations, both guests remain optimistic about the people, relationships and opportunities that make horticulture such a rewarding industry to be part of.
S7 · E7
October 28 · 33 min
Hi-Tech vs Hi-Touch: Automation Without Alienation | Glee 2026
Can garden centres embrace automation without losing the personal touch that customers value? Recorded live at Glee 2026, Phil Wright is joined by Paul Pleydell (Pleydell Smithyman), Johnny Critchley-Salmonson (Scotsdales), Helen Lloyd (Stratford Garden Centre) and Justin Williams (Fron Goch Garden Centre) to explore how technology is changing garden centre catering. From QR-code ordering and self-service kiosks to kitchen screens and restaurant robots, the panel shares practical experiences of introducing new technology, including increased average spend, improved efficiency and the occasional moment when everything goes wrong. But does greater automation mean less human interaction? Or can removing repetitive tasks actually give staff more opportunities to deliver the personal service that customers appreciate? It's a lively discussion about managing change, balancing customer expectations with commercial pressures and creating what Paul describes as a more 'frictionless business', without forgetting the importance of smiles per square metre.
S7 · E6
October 20 · 29 min
Growing when the tailwinds are gone | Alan Roper, Blue Diamond
After 43 years in business, Alan Roper believes the trading environment has fundamentally changed. The tailwinds that once helped retailers grow have disappeared, and he doesn't expect them to return any time soon. But Blue Diamond Garden Centres isn't standing still. Recorded live at Glee, Alan begins with a frank assessment of the challenges facing garden centre businesses before joining Phil Wright to explain how Blue Diamond has increased profits by 44%, despite mounting employment costs. They explore how benchmarking across the group has helped improve efficiency without sacrificing customer service, and how Alan is embracing AI to uncover missed sales opportunities, analyse performance and make better business decisions. Alan also discusses the impact AI is already having on jobs, plans to introduce a virtual gardening adviser, and how £60 million of backing from Caledonia Investments will support Blue Diamond's continued expansion. It's a candid and practical conversation about people, productivity, profitability and why Alan remains optimistic about the future of garden centre retail.
S7 · E5
October 13 · 33 min
What's holding peat-free back? | Dan Durston & Simon Blackhurst
Peat-free compost has come a long way, so why is the industry still struggling to move forward? Recorded live at Glee, Phil and Kate are joined by Dan Durston and Simon Blackhurst from Durstons to explore the commercial pressures, quality challenges and consumer perceptions shaping the future of growing media. With retailers still pushing for low-price compost, are manufacturers being forced to compromise on performance? And could poor-quality products be undermining consumer confidence in peat-free? The conversation explores plans for a minimum performance standard, the importance of helping gardeners choose the right products, and whether the industry should take the lead rather than wait for government legislation. With quality improving and the technology already available, what's really holding peat-free back?
S7 · E4
October 6 · 29 min
Finding profit hiding in plain sight | Josh Novell, Polhill Garden Centre
Where could profit be hiding in the everyday workings of your garden centre? For Josh Novell, a sandwich arriving 10–15 minutes before his coffee prompted a closer look at how Polhill’s restaurant operated. That led to a wider examination of the processes, buying decisions and business habits that affect both profitability and the customer experience. Recorded live on stage at Glee 2026, this episode of The Underground sees Phil Wright joined by Polhill Garden Centre director Josh Novell to explore what the business has learned. They discuss why more coffee machines weren’t the answer, how keeping promotions running too long can erode profit, and why knowing when a Christmas product sold out can change the next buying decision. Josh also shares the ideas that didn’t work, including an Aldi-inspired approach to displaying deals, and explains the thinking behind Polhill’s expansion into padel and events. An honest, practical conversation about finding opportunities to improve profitability in the business you already have.
S7 · E3
September 29 · 21 min
Green-fingered to clean-fingered: meeting the changing garden customer | Natalie Boynton & Ed Hill
What does the next generation of garden customers actually want from us? Recorded at Glee 2026, Kate Turner is joined by Natalie Boynton, Sales Director at Happy Plants, and Ed Hill, Managing Director of The Horti House, for a conversation about a customer who may look very different from the traditional green-fingered gardener. Natalie introduces the idea of the affectionate “plonker”: someone who wants gardening to be accessible, straightforward and easy to enjoy. From hanging baskets you can simply put on a hook to plants designed for balconies and rented homes, is the industry doing enough for people who want the result without first becoming gardening experts? They discuss whether plant care information has become unnecessarily complicated, how houseplants helped make plants part of lifestyle and interior design, whether garden centres can offer too much choice, and why giving customers confidence may matter more than giving them every piece of horticultural information. The conversation also explores the changing role of garden centres, the importance of knowledgeable staff, and how better use of technology, AI and customer data could help retailers understand and support the people coming through their doors. Plus, Natalie and Ed answer our Glee question: what could the garden sector learn from outside the industry? A thoughtful conversation about making plants easier to buy, easier to understand and relevant to a changing customer.
S7 · E2
September 23 · 36 min
Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall: Why Grow Your Own Matters More Than Ever
What happens when growing your own food becomes about much more than what ends up on the plate? Recorded live on stage at Glee, Phil Wright and Kate Turner are joined by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, chef, broadcaster, author, campaigner and the man behind River Cottage. Hugh takes us back to the childhood experience that first sparked his fascination with growing, and explains how that relationship with food eventually helped inspire River Cottage. The conversation explores why growing food can be an act of self-reliance, how it changes our relationship with what we eat, and why Hugh believes growing organically and looking after the life within our soil is more relevant than ever. We also hear about his High Fibre Heroes, the connection he sees between the microbiome in our soil and our own gut health, and why even growing a small amount of food can make a difference. Towards the end of the conversation, Hugh is joined by Max Mancroft from Seed Revolution. They discuss their River Cottage organic seed range, the opportunity to make growing from seed feel simpler and more appealing, and why a packet of seeds might just make a rather good present. Finally, Hugh and Max answer our Glee question: what could the garden sector learn from outside the industry?
S7 · E1
September 16 · 44 min
Michael Perry on Gardeners’ World, AI and the Future of Garden Retail
Whenever Michael Perry joins The Underground, the conversation is unlikely to follow a predictable path. Recorded at Glee 2026, this relaxed and wide-ranging chat sees Michael join Phil Wright and Kate Turner to discuss what could come next for Gardeners’ World, whether gardening television needs to become more commercially aware and why different parts of the sector need to understand the audiences they serve. They also explore what makes a new plant stand out, how good storytelling can help a product succeed, the rise and fall of rare houseplants, selling plants on QVC and the growing importance of authenticity as AI-generated content becomes harder to avoid. Along the way, the conversation takes in garden centres as the department stores of the future, the uneasy relationship between sustainability and artificial products, attractive male gardeners and Michael’s latest business idea: a mobile garden centre in an old library van. It’s a friendly, funny and candid conversation about plants, marketing and where the garden sector could go next.
S6 · E1
September 1 · 50 min
Houseplants, Chelsea and Knowing Your Worth, with Gemma Haigh
Gemma Haigh’s route into horticulture hasn’t exactly been conventional. After starting her career in museums and heritage, she turned a lifelong love of plants into The Plant Parlour, working across houseplants, content creation, design and interior landscaping. She also created a Houseplant Studio for the 2024 RHS Chelsea Flower Show, inspired, perhaps unexpectedly, by the post-apocalyptic world of The Last of Us. But this conversation goes well beyond houseplants. Gemma joins Phil and Kate to talk about why industries driven by passion can become comfortable with expecting people to work for very little, the difficulty of putting a proper value on horticultural expertise, and whether women face additional barriers when trying to make a career in the sector. They also discuss caring responsibilities, the treatment of women online, why follower numbers and genuine expertise aren’t the same thing, and what brands should be looking for when they work with creators. And, returning to plants, Gemma explains why climate change could start to blur the distinction between what we think of as an indoor plant and an outdoor plant. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about plants, careers, expertise and what it takes to be taken seriously in horticulture. In this episode: How an overflowing garden led Gemma into houseplants Creating a Houseplant Studio at RHS Chelsea Flower Show Why passion shouldn’t be used as an excuse for poor pay Whether horticulture properly values professional expertise Women, caring responsibilities and career progression The difference between influence, entertainment and genuine authority Why brands need to think harder about who represents them How our changing climate could change the way we grow houseplants
S6 · E7
August 17 · 37 min
How to Survive Glee: The Garden Industry’s Best Tips
Glee is one of the biggest dates in the garden industry calendar. It’s also three very long days of walking, talking, networking, discovering new products and trying to remember who said what by the time you get home.So, ahead of Glee 2026, we’ve delved back into Season 1 of The Underground and brought together some of the best Glee survival advice from our guests. And between them, they’ve clocked up a lot of exhibition miles. We hear tips from garden centre leaders, suppliers, marketers, PR professionals, journalists, growers and industry organisations on how to get more from the show, whether you’re exhibiting or visiting. There’s plenty of practical advice: comfortable shoes, hydration, planning your meetings, taking useful notes, making time to explore every aisle and following up properly afterwards. But there are some bigger lessons too. How do you make the most of chance conversations? What should an exhibitor actually be trying to achieve? Why should your product packaging be able to sell the story without somebody standing beside it? And why might staying until the very last bell lead to a customer relationship that lasts ten years? You’ll also discover the importance of yoga, a good breakfast, emergency plasters, strategic coffee consumption and, apparently, the correct way to end a conversation. Featuring advice from Alan Roper, Boyd Douglas-Davies, Debi Holland, Elaine Gotts, Ellen Mary, Fran Barnes, Guy Jenkins, Jane Hartley, Jane Lawler, Kate Ebbens, Kimberley Hornby-George, Linda Petrons, Matthew Mein, Megan Warren-Davis, Michael Perry, Simon Taylor, Steve Harper, Toby Thomas, Vicky Nuttall and Will Scott. The Underground is the official podcast partner of Glee 2026.
S6 · E6
August 11 · 30 min
The Future of the Garden Industry: One Year On
With Glee just a month away, we’re heading back to Birmingham, as well as the conversations we recorded there last year. At Glee 2025, we asked every guest who joined us one simple question: What’s one change you’d love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?The answers gave us a fascinating snapshot of where the industry thought change was needed. We heard calls for more young people to discover gardening and horticulture, better training for people entering the industry, greater support for independent garden centres and much more ambitious use of digital technology. Our guests also talked about sustainability, peat-free growing media, water conservation, online retail, AI and how garden centres themselves could evolve. There were plenty of big ideas too, from turning garden centres into evening destinations to rethinking the way plants are merchandised. A year on, and with the industry preparing to come together at Glee again, it feels like the perfect time to revisit those conversations. Which ideas are beginning to happen? Which challenges are still with us? And if we asked the same question at Glee this year, would the answers be any different?Featuring voices from across garden retail, horticulture, suppliers, marketing and the wider garden sector.
S6 · E5
August 4 · 33 min
Plants, People and the Growth of Perrywood Garden Centres
From a four-acre smallholding growing strawberries and potatoes to three award-winning garden centres, Perrywood’s story is one of family, plants and steady growth. In this episode, Phil and Kate talk to Hannah Powell, HR and Communications Director at Perrywood Garden Centres, about how the business has expanded without losing the values that shaped it. Hannah explains why plants remain at the heart of Perrywood, how industry standards have encouraged continuous improvement, and why knowledgeable, well-supported teams are central to the customer experience. They also discuss attracting younger customers, the power of a successful loyalty programme, making sustainable choices, the pressures facing garden centre businesses and how climate change could affect what customers grow in the future. Along the way, Hannah shares why gardening is her therapy and how a visit to a garden centre can offer people far more than a shopping trip.
S6 · E1
July 27 · 48 min
How People Choose: Emotion, Strategy and Creative Marketing with Phil Wright
This week, the tables are turned as Kate interviews The Underground co-host Phil Wright, co-founder of creative marketing agency WrightObara.Phil recently wrote an in-depth article exploring how people choose one product over another. In this conversation, he explains why those decisions are rarely driven by facts, features and price alone — and why good creative marketing needs to do more than simply explain what a product does.The discussion begins with Phil’s slightly irrational desire for an iPod Nano and develops into a wider conversation about emotion, gut feeling, brand perception, strategy and creativity. Phil and Kate explore: Why rational versus irrational is often the wrong distinction How brands become a collection of promises and experiences Why research and analysis are not the same as strategy How creativity helps products get noticed, understood and remembered The emotions that can influence even practical garden purchases Why brands need to persuade both the retail buyer and the shopper Whether emotional marketing is persuasive or manipulative Why explaining a product is rarely enough to make people want it It is also a chance to learn a little more about Phil, the thinking behind WrightObara and why understanding how people choose has become central to the agency’s work. Read Phil’s full article, How people choose: emotion, reason and the power of creative marketing: https://wrightobara.com/blog/how-people-choose-emotion-reason-and-the-power-of-creative-marketing/ Find out more about WrightObara: www.wrightobara.com
S6 · E3
July 21 · 51 min
From Dig for Victory to AI: How Gardening Is Changing with Ross Pearson
Garden writer and horticultural lecturer Ross Pearson joins Phil and Kate to talk about his ambitious Dig for Victory allotment project and what wartime growing advice can still teach gardeners today. Ross has set out to grow food using guidance originally produced by the Ministry of Agriculture, exploring what might have been lost as gardening has become more convenient. The conversation covers the importance of healthy soil, compost, manure and crop rotation, alongside the growing expectation that gardens should deliver instant results. They also discuss the role garden centres play in shaping what people buy, whether confidence is sometimes mistaken for expertise on social media, and why follower numbers increasingly influence opportunities for garden writers and horticultural professionals. Ross speaks honestly about the demands of creating gardening content, his concerns about AI-generated advice and articles, and why the enthusiasm he sees among younger people gives him confidence in the future of horticulture. The conversation also reveals where Ross’s love of gardening began, with warm memories of his grandfather Jackie, his allotment and “the Jackie way” of doing things. Follow Ross on Instagram and TikTok: @rosspearsongardening
S6 · E2
July 13 · 29 min
Why Print Still Matters in Garden Retail – Nick Trachillis, The Garden Centre Magazine
At a time when so much marketing is measured in clicks, what can a physical magazine still offer garden centres, suppliers and their customers? In this episode of The Underground, Phil and Kate are joined by Nick Trachillis, director of The Garden Centre Magazine. Nick explains how the business creates bespoke magazines for garden centres across the UK, free to both the centre and its customers and funded by national and local advertisers. They discuss the importance of useful editorial content, how to balance the needs of readers and advertisers, and why a magazine taken home can continue working long after a customer has left the garden centre. The conversation also covers the challenge of measuring print advertising, the value of loyal local audiences, the role of cafés and restaurants in increasing dwell time, and how print and digital can work alongside each other. Nick also shares the family story behind the business, its long-standing support for Greenfingers Charity, and his belief in natural growth, strong relationships and creating a workplace people genuinely enjoy being part of. A warm and practical conversation for garden centre owners, suppliers, marketers and anyone interested in customer communication across the garden retail sector.
S6 · E1
July 7 · 49 min
Dr Ana Attlee on Seedball, Wildflowers and Pollinators
We're back for a brand new season of The Underground Podcast!In our first episode, Phil and Kate are joined by Dr Ana Attlee, co-founder of Seedball, to talk about wildflowers, pollinators, biodiversity and the role garden centres can play in helping people make more wildlife-friendly choices.Seedball was created to make growing wildflowers from seed as simple as possible. Ana shares how Seedball grew from academic research and a passion for conservation into a mission-led garden product stocked by retailers including garden centres. The conversation explores the loss of wildflower meadows, the importance of bees and other pollinators, why wildlife gardening needs to feel hopeful rather than overwhelming, and how small spaces can still make a real difference.Phil and Kate also talk to Ana about working with organisations such as Kew Gardens, and why garden centres are so important in normalising wildlife-friendly gardening for every generation.A hopeful, practical and inspiring conversation about native wildflowers, biodiversity, sustainable gardening and the power of making environmental action feel achievable.Find out more about Seedball: https://seedball.co.uk/Your hosts:Phil Wright: ⁠http://wrightobara.com⁠Kate Turner: ⁠http://www.gardenerguru.co.uk
S5 · E12
Dec 10, 2025 · 29 min
The Next Five Years of Garden Retail – Voices from Glee 2025
What’s the one change you’d most like to see in garden retail over the next five years? At Glee 2025, we put that question to all 20 of our guests who joined us in The Underground podcast booth – from garden centre owners and suppliers to marketeers, educators and innovators. The result is a sharp, hopeful snapshot of where the garden sector wants to head next. In this compilation episode you’ll hear from voices including: Amy and Libby Stubbs (British Garden Centres), Kate Ebbens (Woodlodge), Michael Perry (Mr Plant Geek), Boyd Douglas-Davies, Peter Burks (GCA), Nigel Thompson (Sipcam Home and Garden), Helen Thomas and Simon Taylor (Empathy), Steve Harper (Grass Gains & Responsible Sourcing Scheme), Vanessa Cranford (Spring Marketing), Aaron Rudman-Hawkins (The Evergreen Agency), Barry Knight (The Full Range), Kaz Edwards (Heart of Eden) Dan Durston and Simon Blackhurst (Durstons), Nat Boynton and Meg Warren-Davis (YPHA), Tony Kersey (GIMA), Paul Oliver (the Urban Nature Store) Rev Dave Walker (Birleymoor Garden Centre), Belle Richardson (Seal Stop) and Paul Pleydell (Pleydell Smithyman). Themes that keep coming up: Attracting younger and more diverse customers into garden centres and horticulture. Better education and funded training for new entrants and shop-floor teams. Peat-free growing media, soil health and biofertilisers becoming the norm. Smarter use of digital, AI and ecommerce to support modern customer journeys. Stronger sustainability standards, water-saving innovation and support for independents at the heart of local communities. If you’re a garden retailer, supplier or brand marketer, this is a 360-degree view of the sector’s hopes, frustrations and priorities as we look towards 2030. ⁠Discover more about our hosts:Kate Turner: ⁠www.gardenerguru.co.uk⁠Phil Wright: ⁠www.wrightobara.com
S5 · E11
Dec 3, 2025 · 50 min
Soil Health, Plant Food & Profit: The Future of Plant Nutrition with Grass Gains & Empathy - Glee 2025
The science of plant nutrition is moving fast, and it is reshaping everything from peat-free compost to profit margins on the shop floor. In this Glee 2025 special, Phil and Kate sit down with Steve Harper, MD of Grass Gains and Chair of the Responsible Sourcing Scheme, and then with Simon Taylor and Helen Thomas from Empathy, Plantworks, to explore what comes next for lawn care, plant feeds and bio-fertilisers in garden retail. Steve explains how Grass Gains is bringing professional-grade lawn products and a new peat-free specific plant food, Bloom, into the consumer market, why excess potassium is sabotaging plant performance in peat-free, and how challenger brands can use social media and TikTok lives to build demand and push back against “blocked out” categories on the shelves. Simon and Helen then lift the lid on Empathy’s latest bio-fertilisers and plant-specific feeds, from RootGrow to the new Green Room houseplant range, all designed with soil biology and peat-free compost in mind. They share how mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria are moving from agriculture into home gardening, how their virtual advice assistant Emily uses AI to support staff and consumers, and why clever attachment selling on the till can meaningfully lift basket spend without cannibalising other lines. In this episode, we cover: Why soil health, not just NPK, is the real foundation of resilient plants in a peat-free world How Grass Gains is positioning as a challenger brand through product quality, format and social media, rather than big-budget advertising The peat-free transition: where the Responsible Sourcing Scheme is now, and what a new quality mark could mean for retailers and consumers The rise of bio-fertilisers: mycorrhizal fungi, beneficial bacteria and what they can do for garden centre customers Empathy’s new product development, packaging and in-store attachment strategies that increase average basket value How AI advice tools like Emily can support, not replace, expert staff on the shop floor If you work in the garden sector and want to understand where plant nutrition, soil health and attachment selling are heading next, this episode is for you. Subscribe to The Underground and visit theunderground.fm to get new episodes and sector insights straight to your inbox.
Nov 26, 2025 · 1 hr
Loyalty, Ads & Footfall: Modern Marketing for Garden Centres - Glee 2025
Marketing for garden centres is changing fast. In this Glee 2025 episode of The Underground, Phil Wright and Kate Turner sit down with two specialists to explore how loyalty data and paid media can work together to drive footfall, sales and long-term customer value in the home and garden sector. First up, Vanessa Cranford from Spring Marketing explains why garden centre loyalty schemes should be treated as profit engines, not cost centres. Drawing on two decades of experience and data from over 100 UK sites, she shows how EPOS-linked loyalty programmes can lift average transaction value by around 50%, increase visit frequency and turn your best customers into brand advocates, all while giving you clearer visibility of churn and customer lifetime value. Then, Aaron Rudman-Hawkins from The Evergreen Agency joins Phil to demystify paid search and paid social for home and garden brands. He breaks down when ads work (and when they don’t), why average order value and lifetime value matter so much, and how to think about budgets by working backwards from revenue goals . He also shares how localised search and smart retargeting can help garden centres “win the postcode and win the weekend”. In this episode you’ll learn: Why loyalty should sit at the heart of your marketing communications, not off to one side How EPOS-integrated loyalty schemes reveal who your high-value “protect at all cost” customers really are Practical examples of using purchase data to upsell, cross-sell and drive repeat visits (from roses to hot drink cards) Common myths about older customers and apps, and how to get teams excited about scanning cards and using data The difference between search and social, and how to use both to capture intent and nudge customers back in-store Why lower-ticket products can struggle with ads, and how repeat purchase or premium ranges can change the equation Whether you’re running a single site or a multi-centre group, this episode is packed with practical, data-driven ideas to modernise your marketing, make better use of the customers you already have, and turn “just another loyalty card” into a real competitive advantage. Spring Marketing: http://springmarketing.co.uk/ The Evergreen Agency: http://theevergreenagency.co.uk/

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