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In The Room

The Independent / Next Chapter Studios

Two former Westminster insiders reveal how politics and power really work.

Ever wondered what goes on behind closed doors at No 10? Or who’s the first person on the phone when a Prime Minister lands themselves in hot water?

Each week former Deputy Cabinet Secretary Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson, former political advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson, dissect the week’s biggest news, revealing how decisions get made, why they go wrong, and what should happen next.

In The Room is straight-talking, insider analysis with a dose of humour, every week.

This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Yesterday · 35 min
Andy Burnham waited his whole life to deliver this speech – here's how it landed
In The Room hits Liverpool for Labour Party Conference. Cleo heads into the hall, fringe events, protests and the media pen, talking to delegates, campaigners and lobbyists to get a feel for Andy Burnham’s Labour. Helen takes a different route, moving between Shelter, the Future Governance Forum and the receptions where senior figures are talking about what comes next. The mood is unusually upbeat, united and hopeful. But beneath the optimism, how much anxiety is there about turning the Burnham bounce into something that lasts? Then Burnham takes the stage. Helen and Cleo unpack an emotional, policy-heavy speech, from social care and pensions to public ownership, Brexit and electoral reform, and ask whether “hope again” can survive the harder realities of governing. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Video editor: Vali Raza Videographer: Dan Faber Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 22 · 36 min
Burnham’s Trump test – and the Lib Dems' identity crisis
The Liberal Democrats are the third-largest party in the Commons, but where do they fit into Andy Burnham’s Britain? Following Ed Davey’s Brighton conference speech, we ask what the party actually stands for and uncover a surprising connection to Cleo’s political past. In New York, Burnham faces his first meeting with Donald Trump. With Ukraine, Iran, AI and even the Falklands potentially on the agenda, what does Britain need from the president, and how do you prepare a prime minister for a meeting with Trump? And across the Channel, Germany’s far-right AfD has secured another regional election victory. What does its rise tell us about Europe’s changing political landscape, and are there lessons for Britain’s established parties? Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 16 · 49 min
Reform’s £72m war chest - and how real are AI doomsday warnings?
Reform’s money trail is still dominating the headlines, with two billionaire donors handing the party £72m in just 48 hours. Meanwhile, the Representation of the People Bill is making its way through the Lords. We look at why attempts to curb big money in British politics keep failing, and why Labour’s own position is more complicated than it seems. Across the Irish Sea, President Trump has reignited the debate over the future of the Union, just as the leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mount a coordinated push for greater self-determination. That leaves Andy Burnham with an awkward question: he’s made devolution central to his premiership, but how far does he really want it to go? And as anxiety over AI moves into the mainstream, we speak to Jonathan Black, who spent two decades at the heart of government, including as Deputy National Security Adviser. He represented Rishi Sunak at the 2023 AI Safety Summit at Bletchley Park, which brought the US, China and the world’s leading AI companies together for the first global agreement on frontier AI safety. Now a distinguished visiting fellow at Columbia University, he joins us to reveal whether the fears around AI have finally caught up with the technology. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 8 · 46 min
Farage’s scandal-hit conference and Burnham’s next big test
Westminster is back, and so is conference season, beginning with Reform’s scandal-hit gathering in Birmingham. Helen was there, and gives her verdict on whether Nigel Farage’s party still feels like a government-in-waiting after a bruising week. Meanwhile, Keir Starmer’s decision to stand down in Holborn and St Pancras has triggered the sixth by-election of the year, with Green leader Zack Polanski eyeing a contest that could become an early test of Andy Burnham’s ability to reunite the left. And as politics returns for a new term, we ask whether Kemi Badenoch’s reshuffle can revive the Conservatives, what Burnham’s first moves back in government tell us about the autumn ahead, and whether Labour can really fight Reform, the Greens and the Tories at the same time. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 25 · 34 min
Lessons from No 10: What happens when the PM meets Trump and Putin | Peter Hill
Being prime minister can be a lonely job. Everyone wants your attention, your approval and a say in the decisions you make. But when the fanfare dies down, it’s you holding the pen and making the biggest calls. Fortunately, every prime minister has one person at their side: their principal private secretary. Peter Hill was Theresa May’s PPS from 2017 to 2019, as well as her sherpa for the G7 and G20 summits. As the most senior civil servant in No 10, he was there for the private conversations, difficult decisions and encounters with some of the world’s most powerful leaders. In this episode, Peter takes us behind the scenes of meetings with Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, revealing what they’re really like in the room, the unexpected humour behind closed doors, and the reality of being at a prime minister’s right hand through thick and thin. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 18 · 47 min
Lessons from No 10: When government comms go badly wrong | Lee Cain
“It's a comms problem” is the diagnosis politicians, pundits and the public often reach for whenever a prime minister flounders. It was arguably Keir Starmer’s biggest undoing. From the beginning, he failed to articulate what kind of prime minister he would be. In the end, nobody really knew what he thought about anything. For today’s guest Lee Cain, Starmer was a “political vacuum” - but believes his successor Andy Burnham is ripe with rhetorical promise. Cain was director of communications in No 10 under Boris Johnson at the height of the Covid pandemic, and before that was a newspaper journalist for many years. He created the idea of the ‘bubble’ - the group of six people you were sanctioned to mingle with during lockdown’s bleakest days. He was also at the sharp end of Johnson’s counterintuitive policy howlers, like instructing the public to avoid pubs, without actually closing them. In this episode, he reveals how these moments unfolded. In this episode of Lessons from No 10, Cain reveals how those moments unfolded. He explains the problem of Whitehall’s comms bloat, revisits the “slow-moving car crash” of the pandemic’s communications failures and offers an insider’s view of Burnham’s “social-first” strategy. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 11 · 33 min
Count Binface vs Farage: Flakes, Ferraris and the Clacton by-election
With the Clacton by-election just days away, In The Room welcomes perhaps Nigel Farage’s most unusual opponent: Count Binface. The intergalactic candidate joins Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson to defend his manifesto, from capping 99 Flakes at 99p and building “at least one” affordable home to tackling Britain’s badly positioned hand dryers. He explains why housing and homelessness sit behind some of the jokes, reveals what he’d do with Buckingham Palace and offers Nigel Farage some advice should he lose the election: head straight to the nearest Ferrari showroom. Afterwards, Helen and Cleo look at what is actually happening in Clacton, whether Binface can translate his media momentum into votes, and what the extraordinary contest tells us about Farage, Reform and the state of British politics. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 4 · 40 min
Lessons from No 10: When the world's most powerful CEOs enter Downing Street | Jimmy McLoughlin
When Apple chief executive Tim Cook visited No 10, he stopped to admire David Bailey’s portrait of Queen Elizabeth II. Jimmy McLoughlin, then Downing Street’s business director, gave him an impromptu tour and discovered along the way that Cook was also a fan of Netflix’s acclaimed royal drama The Crown. Working under Theresa May, McLoughlin’s role was to help ensure that some of the world’s most influential business leaders had a productive relationship with the prime minister. Cook’s fascination with the Queen pointed to something broader: the value of British soft power, and the importance of the relationship between Westminster and the corporate world. In the first episode of Lessons from No 10, McLoughlin joins Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson to discuss what ministers really need to understand about business. Now host of Jimmy’s Jobs of the Future, he argues that politicians do not all need to have run companies themselves – but they do need to understand the people who have. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 31 · 43 min
Who's winning the summer? Burnham, Badenoch and Farage assessed
As Andy Burnham's second week in power draws to a close, his rivals are scratching their heads and plotting their summer challenges – with mixed results. Green leader Zack Polanski is facing heat over yet another social media misdemeanour, it’s far from all quiet for Nigel Farage on the Clacton front, and the Liberal Democrats are nowhere to be seen – time for another Ed Davey stunt? Meanwhile, Kemi Badenoch is preparing to embark on a summer tour with the highest approval rating of any Tory leader since April 2021. Today, we bring you the ultimate preview of Westminster's summer. During August we'll be having our own summer recess, bringing you a special interview series: Lessons From No.10. Jimmy McLoughlin – the podcast host who landed the first interview with the new PM and a former business director in No.10 – tells us what it's really like meeting the world's most powerful CEOs. Peter Hill – principal private secretary to Theresa May – describes what it's like being up close with Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump and Angela Merkel. And Lee Cain – who found himself almost running the country when Boris Johnson was hospitalised during Covid – tells us how to hold government communications together in a crisis. As a new prime minister settles in, this series is the ultimate primer for life inside 10 Downing Street. We'll be back from the start of September, when Andy Burnham faces Kemi Badenoch at PMQs for the very first time – and the countdown to party conference season begins. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 28 · 36 min
Too much Manchester? Andy Burnham's first big interview unpacked
Andy Burnham finally sat down to face some old school scrutiny this week. After weeks of winning praise for his social-first approach to communications – Britain's first TikTok Prime Minister? – he finally sat down for a proper grilling with the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg. Today, we unpack his performance. How did he handle the tough questions on Trump and Putin? Is he talking about Manchester a little too much? And beyond the polished messaging, does he sound like a Prime Minister with a convincing plan to govern? Meanwhile, No.10's policy fruit machine spun again with a surprise overhaul of technical education, and Count Binface launched a manifesto that might just be the clearest piece of political communication of the week. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 24 · 35 min
Andy Burnham week one: promises, pitfalls and the prison problem
Andy Burnham has survived his first week. The former Manchester mayor turned prime minister is now in his spiritual home – No.10 North – after repeatedly calling it the best day of his life. It's been a week of 6am policy drops, wall-to-wall coverage and Burnham firmly at the centre of every story. But Helen and Cleo aren't just here to admire the opening moves. They want to know whether the presidential style is already tipping into hubris, what the prison U-turn actually signals about the government underneath the announcements – and perhaps most importantly of all… why does he keep hugging everybody? Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 21 · 34 min
Andy Burnham is Prime Minister. Now what?
After weeks of speculation, Andy Burnham finally unveiled his first cabinet late on Tuesday, with John Healey the surprise choice as chancellor, Ed Miliband moving to the Foreign Office and Shabana Mahmood remaining as home secretary. Then came his first speech outside Downing Street. Dispensing with the familiar prime ministerial lectern, Burnham promised to end rough sleeping, reviving one of the defining pledges of his time as mayor of Greater Manchester. In the latest episode of In The Room, we pick apart what his appointments tell us about the government he wants to lead, who has emerged with real power, who has been cast aside, and whether the promises he's making now are ones he can actually keep. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Jose Luis Ugarte Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 17 · 31 min
Inside Andy Burnham’s No 10 takeover
Andy Burnham has finally been crowned Labour Party leader. Attention turns now to his top team, with home secretary Shabana Mahmood hotly tipped to be named chancellor. Meanwhile, Ed Miliband and Wes Streeting continue to cast a shadow over Burnham’s picks. On Monday, after formalities with the King, Burnham will become the UK’s seventh prime minister in ten years. Today, we tell you what to expect in Monday’s power transition, discuss what his top team might signal, and ask whether Shabana Mahmood will make the best choice as chancellor. Read more from The Independent: Mr Milburn’s historic NEET review deserves cross-party support Andy Burnham claims he has a plan for change – it’s a shame he still hasn’t told us what it is What Shabana Mahmood as chancellor could mean for your money and taxes Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 14 · 34 min
Can Andy Burnham succeed where Keir Starmer failed?
It’s Keir Starmer’s final week in office. 739 days ago, after a rejection of the Tories and a sweeping landslide for Labour, he became PM. So where did it all go wrong for him? Today we take a trip down memory lane to summer 2024 and the beginning of Keir Starmer’s rocky first 100 days and ask: can Andy Burnham learn from Keir Starmer's mistakes? Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 10 · 39 min
Will Andy Burnham make you richer?
Andy Burnham has promised “growth in every postcode”. It is a big, attractive political line – the sort of thing voters want to hear after years of feeling poorer, public services feeling stretched, and wages struggling to keep up with the cost of living. It is also a promise that tells us a lot about Burnham’s politics. He has long argued that Britain is too London-centric, that Whitehall is too slow, and that too many decisions about towns and cities are made by people who do not live in them. Today, Helen and Cleo analyse Burnham’s economic proposals so far and give insight into the harsh reality politicians face when promising ‘growth’ - does Burnham have enough time before the next general election for people to really feel this change? Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 7 · 32 min
The real reason Nigel Farage fired himself
Nigel Farage got Westminster watchers in a frenzy today. A cryptic tweet promising a statement on “the future of my public life” triggered two hours of fevered speculation: resignation as Reform leader, departure from Parliament, or another act of political theatre. What followed was a scathing attack on the media and political class he routinely rails against - despite his own deep entanglement with both. With practiced ease, he cast himself as an embattled outsider, explaining his anger, his treatment in public life, and the need for a £5m donation from a Thailand-based crypto billionaire to fund his personal security. A resignation did eventually come - Farage confirmed he will resign as MP for Clacton, forcing a by-election - in which he intends to stand again. The manoeuvre all but guarantees him another summer of headlines, airtime and attention, cutting neatly across Andy Burnham’s attempt to seize the political agenda. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 3 · 38 min
Has Nigel Farage lost his Midas touch?
Nigel Farage has spent decades turning political setbacks into opportunities. Parties have risen and fallen around him, controversies have come and gone, and yet he has always managed to emerge stronger. But this week feels different. Questions over a £5 million gift from a crypto billionaire, lucrative outside earnings, a series of disappointing by-election results and an unusually defensive run of media appearances have prompted fresh questions about whether Britain's most resilient political survivor is finally losing his golden touch. Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson ask whether this is just another Westminster bubble story or the first real sign that Farage is being judged not as a political insurgent, but as a prime minister-in-waiting. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
June 30 · 49 min
Andy Burnham wants to be Britain’s least powerful PM
Devolution – or devo-maxxing – was the order of the day in Andy Burnham’s most significant speech yet on how he would govern. In front of an eager press pack that scrambled up from London, the prime minister-in-waiting set out a bold agenda focused on devolving power, reforming Whitehall and reindustrialising Britain. But devolution is a tune plenty of leaders have played before. Tony Blair turbo-charged it after 1997, George Osborne promised a Northern Powerhouse, and Boris Johnson made plenty of noise about levelling up. Still, Britain remains top-heavy, with power and wealth concentrated in London. The UK also sends a far greater share of tax revenue to central government than almost all other major economies. So is now the right time to devo-maxx? And is Burnham the right man to do it? Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
June 23 · 38 min
Why Andy Burnham might not be ready for No 10
Andy Burnham’s camp is caught between euphoria and fear. After his victory in the Makerfield by-election and Keir Starmer’s resignation, the path to No 10 appears to have opened up for the former Manchester mayor. On what would be his third attempt at the Labour leadership, Burnham could be prime minister by mid-July – and the UK’s seventh in ten years. But with the clock already ticking, is his team prepared for power? Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson assess the mood inside Burnham’s camp, the mistakes he must avoid repeating from the Starmer years, and why greater urgency and ruthlessness will be needed if he is to govern successfully. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
June 19 · 33 min
Makerfield by-election: Has Andy Burnham united the left?
It wasn’t so close after all. Andy Burnham achieved 9,241 votes more than the second place Reform candidate, Robert Kenyon. Even talk of Restore Britain stealing votes from Reform mattered little in the end. The reality of the Makerfield by-election is it’s a thumping win for Labour’s Andy Burnham, and a disappointing night for Nigel Farage, whose attempts to dial up division in recent weeks didn’t pay off. In this bonus episode we react to this week’s two Westminster by-elections where voters in Makerfield and Aberdeen South went to the polls. The latter is an interesting case study of single issue campaigning and a sign of a possible Tory revival in Scotland. We also reveal what our advice to Andy Burnham would be as efforts to oust Keir Starmer from No 10 heat up. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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