Humans in the Loop

Seb Agertoft

Humans in the Loop, hosted by Seb Agertoft, is a podcast for thoughtful technologists asking the hard questions at the intersection of technology and society.

Guests include founders, investors, researchers, artists, policymakers and even a Zen Master, covering topics like the AI bubble debate, tech sovereignty, the Chinese tech industry, radicalisation and conspiracy theories, AGI, quantum computing, technology and democracy, the future of work, and much more.

Seb is a coach to tech company founders and leadership teams. You can find out more about his work at www.theuncommonfounder.com

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September 15 · 1 hr 2 min
British Energy Sovereignty | Sir Dieter Helm - Leading UK Energy Economist
Sir Dieter Helm is the UK's leading energy economist and Professor of Economic Policy at the University of Oxford. He is also the first Knight of the Realm on Humans in the Loop. As a proud Brit and European, I care deeply about British and European prosperity. Technology is not the only driver of that, but it is an important one. And given the geopolitical state of the world, there is going to be more and more importance placed on sovereignty i.e. our ability to stand on our own two feet. I often run into this argument that one of the major blockers to sovereign British technology is the high cost of British energy, so I brought Dieter on to talk about British energy and what a more sovereign technological future might look like. Dieter's book - Climate Realism: Facing the Facts about Energy is out on October 8th: https://dieterhelm.co.uk/books/climate-realism/ Key topics UK deindustrialization and its impact on emissions Intermittent renewable energy and system costs Cost structure of industrial energy in the UK Global competitiveness and energy prices The role of nuclear and firm power Sovereignty and energy independence post-Brexit Global energy resources and geopolitical risks Technological innovation in energy and AI Where you can watch/listen Youtube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HumansintheLoopPod Apple podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114⁠ Spotify⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=b5a46211098b4f3e⁠Or wherever you get your podcasts! Get in touch Instagram⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod/⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com Where to find Sir Dieter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dieter-helm-3077b214b/ Website: https://dieterhelm.co.uk/
August 25 · 51 min
Don't Be Evil. The Cost of Speaking out as a Google Insider | Claire Stapleton - Fmr Google Employee
Claire Stapleton spent 12 years at Google from 2007 - 2019. She joined as a fresh grad at a time of peak optimism and idealism in Silicon Valley, and soon became somewhat of a 'Bard' - responsible for shaping the story and sharing the folklore around Google with employees and later the outside world. In 2018, feeling increasingly disillusioned with what Google had become, Claire was one of the organizers of a 20k employee walkout in protest against the company's handling of sexual harassment allegations against certain senior executives - one of whom, Andy Rubin, had allegations against him deemed credible by an internal investigation - yet walked away with a warm handshake and $90m exit package. Claire and the other women who organised faced a backlash from Google with their roles and responsibilities being diminished in the aftermath. Claire eventually left in 2019, and her memoir, 'Don't Be Evil' has recently been released and is available at any good bookshop near you: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/04/books/review/dont-be-evil-claire-stapleton.html Claire's own journey maps to a time in which internal and public sentiment towards big tech in general has shifted so we sat down to talk not just about her own experience at Google, but also the wider vibe shift in the industry as a whole. Key topics The early idealistic days of Google Claire's role as 'The Bard' - telling the internal folklore of Google to its employees and the outside world Google's Me Too moment - her role as organizer of 20k employee walkout The backlash that she and other women at Google faced as a consequence The vibe shift from idealism to corporate ruthlessness When she stopped believing the story she was telling Her experiences of parenting and grief and how that shaped how she felt about her work Where you can watch/listen Youtube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HumansintheLoopPod Apple podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114⁠ Spotify⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=b5a46211098b4f3e⁠Or wherever you get your podcasts! Get in touch Instagram⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod/⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com Where to find Claire LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-stapleton-868a935/ Substack: ⁠https://techsupport.substack.com/ X: https://x.com/clairewaves?s=20 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clairewaves
August 11 · 1 hr 2 min
A rational take on tech | Benedict Evans - Tech Analyst & Fmr A16z Partner
Benedict Evans is a tech analyst and former partner at A16z. His newsletter with rational takes on tech goes out to over 175k people. In amongst the noise around AI and the tech industry more broadly, Benedict has built a reputation for high quality, level headed analysis. I sat down with Benedict to discuss topics such as: The current state of technology and ongoing platform shifts Whether this time is truly different or not Historical comparisons of technological revolutions Challenges in predicting AI's future trajectory Silicon Valley’s naivety about the world The cultural and philosophical aspects of AI and art The importance of understanding complex systems and markets Where else you can listen Youtube⁠⁠⁠⁠ - https://www.youtube.com/@HumansintheLoopPod ⁠⁠Apple podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠ - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114 Spotify⁠⁠ - https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=b5a46211098b4f3e Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Benedict Evans' perspective on tech noise 03:33 E-commerce growth and retail media expansion 07:05 Historical scale of technological change and exponential growth 10:33 The unpredictability of technological evolution 14:08 The difference between automating tasks and jobs 17:24 The limitations of AI in creating authentic art 18:13 The organizational and deployment challenges of AI 20:39 The emergence of new pathways and the unpredictability of AI evolution 22:20 Historical perspectives on internet and mobile adoption 23:37 The importance of questions and uncertainty in analysis 25:01 The impact of the internet on industries and productivity 26:29 The exponential nature of technological progress 28:23 Organizational inertia and the difficulty of change 30:04 The complexity of automating jobs versus tasks 32:38 The role of models in understanding human work and creativity 36:26 The potential of AI as a pattern matcher and logic system 39:23 The philosophical limits of AI and human judgment 41:24 Cultural perceptions of art, authenticity, and AI 44:52 The enduring human element and cultural value in art 45:46 The future of AI and human creativity 48:47 The broader implications of AI as a platform for a new economy 50:15 Historical context of technological revolutions and their long timelines 52:24 Philosophical debates on existence, value, and AI 54:07 Benedict Evans' perspective on Silicon Valley and tech optimism 55:35 The influence of politics and regulation on AI development 56:49 The mindset needed for startup innovation and large-scale change 57:20 Benedict Evans' optimism about the future and long-term progress 58:47 Reflections on historical hardships and the progress of humanity 01:00:51 The long arc of human history and technological progress Get in touch Instagram⁠⁠⁠ - https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod/ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com Where to find Benedict LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benedictevans/ Newsletter: https://www.ben-evans.com/newsletter Website: https://www.ben-evans.com
July 14 · 58 min
Stochastic Parrots | Emily M. Bender - Professor of Computational Linguistics
Few people understand language quite like today's guest. Emily M. Bender is a Professor of Computational Linguistics at the University of Washington. She's also the person who coined the term 'Stochastic Parrots' in the now infamous paper that saw Google fire its Ethical AI lead; and the co-author of The AI Con, a book which is unflinching in its criticism of both AI boosterism and doomerism (in fact she objects to the term AI). I sat down with Emily to discuss topics such as: How language really works What LLMs are actually doing What Stochastic Parrots really means Why doomers and boosters are two sides of the same, misleading coin Where else you can listen ⁠⁠⁠Youtube⁠⁠⁠ - https://www.youtube.com/@HumansintheLoopPod ⁠Apple podcasts⁠⁠⁠ - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114 ⁠Spotify⁠ - https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=b5a46211098b4f3e Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 Introduction to AI and Linguistics 02:54 Understanding Computational Linguistics 05:47 The Stochastic Parrots Paper 08:32 The Implications of AI Terminology 10:57 Skepticism Towards AI Claims 12:58 The Illusion of Intelligence in AI 15:55 The Dangers of AI in Professional Settings 18:33 Democratization and Distrust in AI Development 28:02 Doomers vs. Boosters: The AI Narrative 32:57 Skepticism in AI: A Personal Journey 36:30 The Rapid Evolution of AI: Are We Outdated? 40:13 The Role of Software Engineering in AI 48:14 Automation vs. Human Expertise: A Balancing Act 53:02 Geopolitical Narratives: The AI Arms Race 56:33 The Future of AI: Regulation and Ethical Use 57:44 Pride in Expertise: Understanding Our Value Get in touch ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ - https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod/ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
June 23 · 56 min
The AI Bubble | Paul Kedrosky - Investor, Researcher, MIT Fellow
I sat down with Paul Kedrosky - investor, researcher and one of the smartest voices out there on the economics of AI and the risks of a bubble. Here are a few of the questions we talked about: What is a bubble? Is AI a bubble? How does it compare to past bubbles? What would cause the bubble to burst? Why should the average person care? Will we see a bull market in laser tag in all the abandoned data centres? What needs to be true for AI to NOT be a bubble? More info about Paul Paul Kedrosky is an investor, writer, and researcher. He has been a regular on-air contributor at CNBC and Bloomberg, and has written for the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and publications around the world. Paul started as an engineer, became a quota-carrying salesperson, then a technology equity analyst on Wall Street, and eventually a venture capitalist. He has started companies, held academic positions in the U.S. and Canada, has a popular newsletter, and is a research fellow at MIT's Institute for the Digital Economy. His Ph.D. research focused on risk, adoption, and path dependence in finance and technology. Where else you can listen ⁠⁠Youtube⁠⁠ - https://www.youtube.com/@HumansintheLoopPod Apple podcasts⁠⁠ - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=b5a46211098b4f3e Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 The AI Bubble Debate 06:44 Understanding Bubbles and Their Characteristics 12:04 Historical Context: Railroads and AI 17:51 The Call Option on AI's Future 19:29 The Necessity of Bubbles for Progress 25:31 Consequences of Stranded Assets 26:51 The Dilemma of Data Centers 28:46 The AI Bubble Dynamics 31:20 The Impact of Economic Bubbles on Society 34:06 The Interconnectedness of Global Financial Systems 36:17 Public Sentiment Towards AI and Job Security 38:18 The Fallacy of Technological Inevitability 40:20 Regulatory Challenges in a Globalized Economy 42:50 Predicting the Burst of the AI Bubble 45:37 Market Sentiment and AI Valuations 49:21 The Token Economy and Its Implications 52:28 Possibilities of Change in the Current Landscape 54:57 The Future of Work and Economic Stability Links https://paulkedrosky.com/ Get in touch ⁠Instagram⁠ - https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod/ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
June 9 · 1 hr
Epstein, Conspiracy and How Ideas Spread | Investigative Journalist James R Ball
How do ideas, however crazy they might seem, spread? Who's a true believer vs. a grifter following the money? Can you talk about Epstein and QAnon without losing your rational mind? How can investigative journalism move with the times? These are just some of the questions I sat down to discuss with award-winning journalist and author James R Ball. He has worked as the global editor of TBIJ, a special correspondent at BuzzFeed UK and special projects editor at The Guardian, where he played a key role in the Pulitzer Prize-winning coverage of the NSA leaks by Edward Snowden, as well as the offshore leaks, HSBC Files, Reading the Riots and Keep it in the Ground projects. At WikiLeaks he was closely involved in Cablegate – the publication of 250,000 classified US embassy cables in 2010 – as well as working on two documentaries based on the Iraq War Logs. James is the author of multiple books, including Post-Truth: How Bullshit Conquered The World and The Tangled Web We Weave: Inside The Shadow System That Shapes the Internet. His most recent book, The Other Pandemic: How Qanon Contaminated The World, was published by Bloomsbury in July 2023. Where else you can listen ⁠Youtube⁠ ⁠Apple podcasts⁠ Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 The Evolution of Information Sharing 08:41 Understanding QAnon: Origins and Impact 28:37 The Social Dynamics of Conspiracy Theories 29:34 Navigating Adolescence and Online Radicalization 34:20 The Manosphere and Young Men's Perspectives 37:01 Moral Panics and Information Overload 40:04 The Epstein Connection and Conspiracy Theories 52:37 The Future of Information in the Digital Age Links https://bsky.app/profile/jamesrball.com https://www.jamesrball.com/about Get in touch Instagram Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
May 26 · 53 min
Eric Ries | Is it even possible to build an Incorruptible company?
Many of us have a sense that even well-meaning companies and institutions lose their way, sometimes becoming downright evil.Eric Ries is a legend when it comes to building tech companies and his new book is written from the perspective of someone whose been 'on the frontlines in the battle for the soul of our economy'.Incorruptible is a new blueprint for companies that will prosper and endure without losing their soul. Now more than ever we need great organisations, institutions and companies. Things that bring us together, not that tear us apart. That we can trust in to put shared human interests and values at the heart of what they do.If you're going to listen to one Humans in the Loop episode, make it this one. Buy the book now. Where else you can listen Youtube Apple podcastsOr wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 The Core Thesis of 'Incorruptible' 02:52 The Urgency of the Moment 07:13 Understanding Financial Gravity 12:21 The Concept of Shareholder Primacy 17:54 The Misconception of Capitalism 23:13 Examples of Resilient Companies 26:59 The Value of Innovative Corporate Structures 28:59 AI Governance and Corporate Responsibility 30:35 The Role of Governance in AI Companies 32:50 Integrity and Mission in Corporate Governance 35:45 The Importance of Principles in Business Decisions 38:30 The Role of Integrity in Governance 40:49 The Consequences of Corporate Mission Statements 43:28 Balancing Lean Startup Principles with Governance 46:35 The Right Time for Founders to Implement Governance 49:23 An Optimistic Vision for the Future of BusinessLinks https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/ https://x.com/ericries https://www.instagram.com/ericriesactual/ https://www.tiktok.com/@ericriesactual https://news.theleanstartup.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow Get in touch Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
May 19 · 56 min
Can you lift a country out of poverty? | Nick Allardice, CEO GiveDirectly
How to lift an entire country out of poverty? Does philanthropy make a difference? What if wealthy tech founders gave away their money? Will AI make poor countries even poorer? How does technology help a country to develop? Those are some of the questions discussed into today's episode of Humans in the Loop featuring Nick Allardice, CEO of GiveDirectly, a non-profit that's sent over $1 billion in cash, directly to those living in poverty. Where else you can watch/listenYoutube - youtube.com/channel/UC1KEYtwPKr5yUv86f7YDB7g/Apple podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 Introduction to GiveDirectly and Philanthropy 02:35 Identifying Communities in Need 06:18 Technology and Cash Transfers 12:10 Empowering Recipients: No Strings Attached 17:45 Community Impact and Economic Growth 23:46 Limitations of Cash Transfers 27:15 Conclusion and Future of Philanthropy 27:33 Skepticism of Central Planning in Local Economies 28:40 The Ineffectiveness of Traditional Teaching Methods 30:38 The Role of Wealthy Individuals in Alleviating Poverty 32:52 The Potential of Cash Transfers to Lift Living Standards 35:37 The Importance of Urgency in Philanthropy 39:26 The Impact of AI on Job Markets in Developing Countries 42:46 Balancing Optimism and Fear in the Age of AI 47:49 Innovative Approaches to Education and Healthcare 50:06 Leveraging AI for Disaster Preparedness 54:05 A Call to Action for the Wealthy to Invest in ChangeLinksGiveDirectly The experiment in Malawi Rutger Bregman's call for the world's billionaires to pick up the phone to NickGet in touch Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
May 5 · 50 min
The Chinese Tech Economy | Selina Xu - AI & China Researcher
China is shaping the world.In direct ways, like innovation, foreign policy, investment.And indirectly, by provoking a response from countries such as the US who see it as a competitor.China's transformation into one of the world's superpowers is the most remarkable transformation of a single country in the history of the world.And yet it's still poorly understood (including by me).Selina Xu is a writer, researcher and AI & China policy lead in the office of former Google CEO, Eric Schmidt and is here to shed light on China and its technology industry, dispelling some myths along the way.Where else you can listen: Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=d0edc1049eac4f39 Apple podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114Or wherever you get your podcasts! Chapters 00:00 The Evolution of China's Tech Industry 03:38 Debunking the Copycat Narrative 06:16 The Role of the State in Innovation 09:51 Xi Jinping's Vision for Technology 12:44 The Return of Jack Ma 15:35 China's Perspective on Global Competition 19:28 Defining Winning in the Superpower Race 22:40 China's Unique Approach to Technology Deployment 26:50 The Role of the State in AI Development 30:03 DeepSeek and the Evolution of Chinese AI 34:19 Agentic AI: Trends and Trajectories 36:57 Emerging Frontiers in AI Research 40:12 Infrastructure and Support for Tech Industries 43:44 Geopolitical Implications of Taiwan and Semiconductors 46:03 Cultural Perspectives on China and Tech 48:53 Optimistic Visions for the Future of AILinks: Selina's website China's AI+ initiative Involution Suspension of ANT's IPO Common prosperity Deepseek moment Chin AI substack - Jeffrey Ding Get in touch Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
March 24 · 47 min
Zen Master Henry Shukman on tech & what it means to be human
Henry Shukman is a Zen Master, a meditation teacher, and co-founder of The Way meditation app.As AI poses some hard questions about what it means to be human, I thought Henry might help make some sense of things. Chapters 00:00 Understanding Zen: A Personal Journey 03:52 The Need for Spirituality: A Personal Crisis 10:07 Living Zen in the Modern World 13:36 Navigating Modern Existence: Technology and Spirituality 18:38 The Motivations Behind Meditation 23:15 Technology's Role in Meditation: The Way App 32:06 Ambition and Spirituality: Finding Balance 39:47 AI and the Nature of Consciousness 45:04 Optimism for the Future: Meditation's Impact Links⁠ The Way App⁠ - https://www.thewayapp.com/ Get in touch Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠ Email: ⁠seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠ Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
March 10 · 43 min
The Creative Process with Fuser Co-Founders Dalena Tran & Hirad Sab
My guests today are artists, film makers, educators, technologists and founders of Fuser, a company building an AI workspace for creatives. With so much noise around what AI should or shouldn’t be used for, and where human creativity starts and ends, I wanted to get Dalena and Hirad on to talk more about the creative process in this technological moment. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Fuser and Its Founders 03:40 The Vision Behind Fuser 06:12 Creative Applications of Fuser 08:35 The Role of AI in Creative Processes 11:24 Navigating the Challenges of AI in Art 13:29 The Future of Creativity with AI 15:48 Investor Relations and Company Integrity 19:00 The Evolving Landscape of Art and Technology 20:52 Conclusion and Future Aspirations Links Fuser Brand video Get in touch ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com⁠ seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠
February 24 · 56 min
Mike Masnick on the decentralised internet
Mike Masnick wrote the paper that helped inspire Bluesky and now he sits on the Bluesky board.A long-time advocate of decentralised tech, Mike's paper 'Protocols not platforms' outlined how a more open protocol-based system to social media would create a healthier social media ecosystem in which people were free to vote with their feet (or their mouse) and go elsewhere, without losing access to the community they'd built.In this wide ranging conversation, Mike and I discuss the future of social media, the internet's trajectory from an open to a closed ecosystem, whether decentralisation can be a winning strategy in a capitalist economy, and much more. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Mike Masnick and Tech Perspectives 05:53 The Evolution of TechDirt and Innovation 11:03 Understanding Free Speech in the Digital Age 15:53 Protocols vs. Platforms: A New Approach to Free Speech 20:50 The Shift from Protocol-Centric to Platform-Centric Internet 28:48 The Evolution of Patents and Competition 31:10 Understanding the Problems with Big Tech 32:23 Moving Towards Decentralization 33:23 The Role of Decentralized Protocols 35:11 Generative AI: Empowerment vs. Control 37:55 Building Personalized Tools for Empowerment 41:35 Decentralization in Social Media: Blue Sky Explained 49:12 The Future of Decentralized Systems 53:04 Mainstream Adoption of Decentralized Technologies Links Protocols not platforms Bluesky Get in touch Instagram ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com seb@theuncommonfounder.com⁠
February 3 · 1 hr
Alex Komoroske on the hacker ethic and pro-social tech
Alex Komoroske is one of the smartest voices out there talking about better forms of technology right now. He spent a long chapter of his career at the likes of Google and Stripe and is now the Founder and CEO of Common Tools, working on enabling decentralised technology. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Alex Komoroske's Perspective on Tech 03:39 The Hacker Ethic and Disillusionment in Tech 06:31 The Slide into Cynicism: A Cultural Shift in Tech 09:12 Emergence and Coordination Complexity in Organizations 11:40 Slime Molds: A Metaphor for Organizational Dynamics 14:24 The Future of Incumbent Organizations 17:24 The Same Origin Policy and Its Consequences 20:06 Resonance vs. Hollowness in Technology 22:50 The Resonant Computing Manifesto 25:09 The Role of LLMs in Shaping the Future 32:07 Unlocking the Power of LLMs 35:40 The Role of Privacy in Resonant Computing 37:09 Organizational Structures for Resonance 42:24 The Importance of a Resonant Privacy Model 46:38 Emergence and Resonance in Technology 53:55 A Vision for the Future of Technology Links: Resonant computing manifesto Alex’s website Slime molds deck Alex’s ‘bits and bobs’ document The Same Origin Paradigm Get in touch: https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod seb@theuncommonfounder.com https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
January 13 · 55 min
Kevin Kelly on Flounder Mode and Optimism
How to describe Kevin Kelly? Founder of Wired Magazine. Writer of industry defining essays like '1000 true fans' - https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/ Co-chair of The Long Now Foundation encouraging people to think on civilisational timescales Passionate traveller and photographer whose travelled remote parts of Asia for the last 50 years - https://kevin2kelly.myshopify.com/products/colors-of-asia-a-visual-journey The subject of the brilliant term, coined by Brie Wolfson - Flounder Mode https://joincolossus.com/article/flounder-mode/ And a dream podcast guest Kevin is known for many things, not least his optimism, but Kevin's flavour of optimism is what we calls 'protopian not utopian' - an acknowledgement that new technology creates major new problems but that over time we find ways to solve them Chapters 00:00 The Hollywood Approach to Career Paths 05:20 Pursuing Interesting Projects 07:46 Influence and Unique Contributions 10:38 Radical Optimism Explained 13:38 The Choice of Optimism 16:28 The Reality of Progress 19:05 Wrestling with Counter Narratives 21:54 Building Better Technology 28:18 Navigating Technology's Strengths and Weaknesses 30:54 The Ethics of Technology Creation 33:14 The Role of Corporations in Technology 36:04 The Necessity of Innovation in Addressing Problems 42:14 Long-Term Thinking and the Long Now Foundation 47:55 Envisioning a Desirable Future 53:11 Celebrating Cultural Heritage Through Photography Get in touch Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod Email: seb@theuncommonfounder.com Personal website: https://www.theuncommonfounder.com
Dec 16, 2025 · 50 min
The Soft Technologies of Democracy with Ed Gillespie
Ed has spent his career thinking systemically about the future and consulting with governments and corporations on topics as varied as the environment, politics, healthcare and education. He's also the co-host of hit podcast 'Jon Richardson and the Futurenauts' alongside comedian Jon Richardson and fellow Futurenaut Mark Stevenson. Given Ed's varied expertise I wasn't quite sure where this conversation would go, but I needn't have worried. What unfolded was a great chat about climate, politics, and the soft technologies of technology that we need to make better use of to solve our toughest problems. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Ed's Work 04:22 The Role of a Futurist 07:17 Asking the Right Questions 10:23 The Politicization of Climate Change 13:12 The Transition to Renewable Energy 16:01 Motivations Behind Climate Action 18:57 The Economic Case for Renewables 22:01 The Challenge of Unburnable Carbon 25:17 Exploring Economic Models: Degrowth vs. Abundance 29:59 Grassroots Perspectives on Climate Action 34:43 Bystander Leadership: The Call for Courage 40:20 Finding Hope Amidst Challenges 46:41 Envisioning a Future of Bio-Regionalism
Dec 2, 2025 · 1 hr 2 min
Creative courage in big tech with Ben Lehnert, fmr design leader Microsoft and SAP
Benedikt Lehnert is former design leader at Microsoft and Chief Design Officer at SAP. He's had a seat at the top table in big tech and brings his own clear-eyed perspective based on that experience.I really enjoyed the conversation with Ben as we discussed the role of the designer in this current moment, the moral responsibilities of building business and technology, the hype cycles and weird incentives at play with the AI hyperscalers, and Ben's view that we should simply focus on adding more than we take. Chapters 00:00 The Evolution of a Designer 05:38 Navigating the Startup Journey 10:03 Transforming Microsoft: A Design Perspective 14:45 The Role of Chief Design Officer at SAP 20:14 Shifting Focus: From Big Tech to Teaching and Ethics 30:07 The Human Condition in Technology 38:35 AI and Humanistic Considerations 43:17 Learning from Poets and Thinkers 58:37 A Hopeful Vision for the Future Ben hosts the Poets and Thinkers podcast and you can find out more about him here: https://benediktlehnert.github.io/
Nov 18, 2025 · 53 min
Talking to animals with Kate Armstrong
Summary In this conversation, I speak to Kate Armstrong, the Executive Director of InterSpecies Internet, about the latest advancements in how we communicate with animals through technology. Kate emphasizes the importance of planetary kinship and the responsibility humans have as advanced toolmakers to create beneficial tools for other species. The discussion also touches on real-world applications of interspecies communication, the complexities of wild animal communication, and the need for legal frameworks to protect animal rights. Throughout the conversation, Kate shares insights into the future of this field and the resources available for those interested in learning more. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Interspecies Internet 03:47 The Journey to Interspecies Communication 06:59 The Origin Story of Interspecies Internet 11:21 Understanding Interspecies Communication 14:19 The Importance of Interspecies Communication 17:17 Technological Applications in Interspecies Communication 19:52 Frontiers of Interspecies Communication 22:50 The Role of AI in Animal Communication 25:40 Exploring Communication Across Species 28:24 Anthropocentrism in Animal Communication 30:39 The Magic of Interspecies Communication 32:11 Domestic Animals as Communication Pioneers 36:18 Ethical Considerations in Animal Communication 38:45 Nature Rights and Legal Frameworks 44:53 The Future of Interspecies Communication Resources: https://www.interspecies.io/ TED talk
Oct 28, 2025 · 57 min
Rewiring Democracy with Godfather of Cybersecurity and public interest technologist, Bruce Schneier
This episode features an OG in the world of internet security, the Godfather of Cybersecurity, Bruce Schneier. Bruce describes himself as a public interest technologist, and has done many things under that banner - run companies, lectured at Harvard, testified before Congress, authored over a dozen books, and written a blog for over 20 years that has more than 250k regular readers - to name just a few. Key topics: - The need for better technical minds in policy making - The implications of AI for democracy (not as bleak as you might expect - Bruce’s new book Rewiring Democracy goes deep on the emerging implications and he remains largely optimistic) - Why the internet was not designed with security in mind - Why prompt injection makes AI applications inherently insecure for high stakes tasks - Threat modelling for personal security in an age of geopolitics Chapters 00:00 What Bruce actually does 03:58 The Journey to Becoming a Public Interest Technologist 06:54 Understanding Cybersecurity and the Internet Today 09:36 Advice for Online Safety and Security 12:39 The Role of Governments in Data Privacy 15:41 Geopolitical Implications of Cybersecurity 18:35 Cyber-Physical Systems and Their Risks 21:49 The Impact of AI on Cybersecurity 24:27 Rewiring Democracy in the Age of Technology 30:08 The Evolving Landscape of Cybersecurity and AI 32:21 Understanding Prompt Injection Vulnerabilities 36:30 The Internet's Security Flaws and Historical Context 39:25 Capitalism's Role in Cybersecurity Failures 46:11 Skepticism Towards Web3 and Blockchain 48:37 Rewiring Democracy for the Information Age 55:27 Trust, Power, and the Future of AI in Governance You can find Bruce at www.schneier.com
Sep 8, 2025 · 44 min
Granola AI Co-founder Sam Stephenson on designing for AI and Human Agency
This episode features Sam Stephenson, co-founder of ⁠Granola⁠ - one of the standout UK success stories in AI product building. Sam and I discussed his background as a designer, his journey to becoming a founder, the trajectory of the company so far, and shares his thoughts on designing for human agency and the future of work. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Granola and Its Purpose 02:33 Sam's Background and Design Journey 05:19 Influences from Communal Living 09:36 The Origin of Granola and Co-founder Dynamics 12:01 The Messy Process of Finding the Right Project 16:12 Simplicity in Product Design 19:11 Growth Trajectory and User Experience 21:45 Balancing Short-term and Long-term Goals 24:12 Navigating AI Development Challenges 26:50 Balancing Innovation and Practicality in AI 29:16 The Pressure of Rapid Growth in AI Startups 32:43 The Future of Work with AI Assistance 36:51 Reducing Coordination Complexity in Organizations 38:28 The Human Element in AI Interactions 41:01 Agency and Control in the Age of AI 43:31 Envisioning a High-Leverage Future with AI
Aug 5, 2025 · 1 hr 4 min
Artist founders and figuring out what AI is really for
In this conversation, I speak to William Morgan and Sylvan Rackham, the Co-Founders of Restless Egg, an incubator for Artist Founders, about the intersection of art, technology, and innovation. They discuss the concept of the 'artist founder', the challenges faced by creative technologists, and the need for a supportive infrastructure to foster their ideas. The conversation explores the role of institutions, funding sources, and the future of technology, particularly in relation to AI. They emphasize the importance of agency in technology and the potential for artist founders to create meaningful experiences that go beyond mere productivity enhancements. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Restless Egg 01:21 Artist founders 04:18 Discovering the Community of Creators 10:10 Key Players in the Artist Founder Ecosystem 14:37 The Role of Philosophy and Technology 20:31 Bridging Art and Technology 25:32 Defining the Artist Founder 28:24 The Future of AI and Experience 29:20 The Role of Artist Founders in E-commerce 32:41 Funding the Creative Frontier 36:58 The Shift in Investment Perspectives 41:03 The Future of Technology and Agency 44:29 AI: Tool or Evolutionary Break? 51:45 The Playful Nature of Innovation 58:59 Empowering Agency Through Technology Where you can hear more from William and Sylvan www.restlessegg.com William's substack Some of the organisations mentioned: Antikythera Restless Egg Strelka Medialab Some of the people mentioned: Benjamin Bratton Refik Anadol Daisy Ginsberg Ian Cheng Other resources referenced: Sam Altman blog post about ideas people My post about Creative Outsiders A piece written by friend and collaborator, Danya Shults An artificial history of natural intelligence

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