Holy Uncertain

Can Theology Be Used to Justify Abuse? | Grace Ji-Sun Kim

Can theology meant to point us toward God actually be used to justify abuse? In this deeply personal episode, host Lauren Ranzino shares how theology was used to justify abuse within her own family, and why that experience has left her asking hard questions about the beliefs we hold and the ways they shape our churches. Lauren and Chris are joined by theologian, professor, and author Grace Ji-Sun Kim to explore how harmful theology and our understandings of God can contribute to environments where abuse is excused, overlooked, or allowed to continue. Together, they talk about teachings around authority, submission, and forgiveness, why reading Scripture in context matters, and how the language and metaphors we use for God can shape the way we treat one another. Grace also introduces a challenging and potentially healing understanding of Jesus as someone who experienced sexual violence and identifies with survivors in their suffering. If you’ve ever wondered how the church can better protect those who are vulnerable - or how our theology might need to change in order to do so - this conversation offers an important place to begin. Continue to learn from Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Grace’s Website Instagram: @gracejisunkim Grace’s Substack Madang Podcast, Grace’s podcast Read Grace’s Books: Surviving God: A New Vision of God Through the Eyes of Sexual Abuse Survivors When God Became White: Dismantling Whiteness for a More Just Christianity And More This episode includes direct discussion of sexual assault and abuse. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault or abuse and needs support, RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline offers free, confidential support 24 hours a day. Call 800-656-HOPE (4673), text HOPE to 64673, or visit RAINN.org. Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Does the Bible Speak for Itself? | David Dault

What do we mean when we say, “The Bible says…”? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by theologian and cultural historian David Dault, author of The Accessorized Bible, to look more closely at the layers of interpretation, translation, publishing, culture, and community that shape the way we encounter Scripture. Together, they explore why the Bible rarely “speaks for itself,” how different Christian communities can read the same text and arrive at very different conclusions, and what happens when our interpretations are treated as if they carry the unquestionable authority of God. David also challenges the idea that the goal is simply to find the one perfect reading - asking instead what responsibility we have for the ways the Bible is used in the lives of other people. The conversation moves from biblical inerrancy and competing versions of Scripture to the ways the Bible has been used throughout history both to justify harm and to inspire liberation. And underneath it all is a practical question: what might change if we approached Scripture not as a tool for winning arguments, but as something that should help us love people better? If you’ve ever wondered how much of what you were taught about the Bible came from the text itself or how much came from the people interpreting it, this episode offers a thoughtful place to wrestle with those questions. Continue learning from David Dault: www.daviddault.com Things Not Seen, David’s award-winning radio show and podcast Instagram: @daultradio Read David’s Books: The Accessorized Bible And More Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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What Happens When We’re Taught Being Gay is a Sin? | Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez

What happens when the faith that gives you belonging also teaches you that a part of who you are needs to change in order to be fully accepted? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by writer, advocate, and Conversion Therapy Dropout author Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez to explore the impact of growing up gay in a Christian tradition that taught him his sexuality needed to change. Tim shares his story of spending nearly a decade trying to change his sexuality through conversion therapy while working behind the scenes at some of the most influential megachurches in the country – all while believing that being fully known could cost him his faith, community, and career. This episode explores shame, belonging, and Tim’s journey toward reconciling his sexuality and faith. Rather than asking listeners to arrive at a particular theological conclusion, this conversation invites us to listen to the story of someone directly impacted by these beliefs – and to consider the human consequences our theology can have. If you’ve ever questioned the church’s teachings around sexuality or wondered how your deeply held beliefs impact others, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to listen, wrestle, and reflect. Learn More from Tim: www.timothysrodriguez.com www.conversiontherapydropoutbook.com Instagram: @timothy.s.rodriguez Read Tim’s book: Conversion Therapy Dropout: A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging Resources Shared in the Episode: Church Clarity / Q Christian Fellowship Books: God and The Gay Christian by Matthew Vines / Torn by Justin Lee / Queer and Christian by Brandon Robertson Documentaries: Pray Away / 1946 Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Can Churches Be Safe for Hurting People? | Dr. Scot McKnight & Adrienne Gibson

What responsibility does the church have to people who have been hurt? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by New Testament scholar Dr. Scot McKnight and therapist Adrienne Gibson to explore what it means for churches to become trauma-informed. Together, they unpack what trauma actually is and why church environments can feel unsafe for people who have been hurt. Rather than placing the burden on traumatized people to return to church, Scot and Adrienne ask what responsibility churches have to create spaces where people feel safe, seen, and cared for. Drawing from their book The Traumatized Church: What Paul's Relationship with the Corinthian Church Can Teach Us About Healing Our Trauma and the Traumas of Those Around Us, they discuss spiritual bypassing, embodied trauma, trauma-informed leadership, and the practical changes churches can make to become places of healing rather than harm. If you've ever experienced church hurt, wondered why some church spaces feel unsafe, or asked what churches can do to better care for wounded people, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to wrestle and reflect. Continue learning from Dr. Scot McKnight & Adrienne Gibson: Scot’s Instagram: @scotandkris Scot’s Substack Adrienne’s Website Adrienne’s Instagram: @traumafocusedauthor Read Scot and Adrienne’s Book: The Traumatized Church: What Paul's Relationship with the Corinthian Church Can Teach Us About Healing Our Trauma and the Traumas of Those Around Us Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Is Speaking In Tongues Real? | Josh Brahinsky

What actually happens when prayer moves beyond words? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by researcher and psychological anthropologist Josh Brahinsky to explore one of the most misunderstood and debated practices in charismatic Christianity: speaking in tongues. Josh, author of Tongues of Fire: How Charismatic Prayer Changes Evangelical Brains and Inspires Spirit-Filled Activism, has spent years studying the practice through fieldwork, interviews, and brain imaging. Together, they talk about what speaking in tongues is, why it has been dismissed or misunderstood, and what research can help us understand about surrender, prayer, the body, and the brain. This conversation holds the tension many people carry around charismatic faith: the real experiences that brought comfort, clarity, or connection to God, alongside the manipulation, fear, and harm that have too often surrounded those same spaces. If you’ve ever wondered whether speaking in tongues is real, fake, spiritual, psychological, or something more complicated than any one category can hold, this episode offers a thoughtful place to wrestle and reflect. Continue to learn from Josh Brahinsky: www.theprayerstudy.com www.instagram.com/theprayerstudy Read Josh’s Book: Tongues of Fire: How Charismatic Prayer Changes Evangelical Brains and Inspires Spirit-Filled Activism Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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What Does God Think of War? | Shane Claiborne

What happens when God’s name is used to justify violence? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by activist, speaker, and author Shane Claiborne to consider how we might think about violence and war alongside the teachings of Jesus. Shane reflects on what it means to follow the “Prince of Peace” in a world shaped by conflict, nationalism, state violence, and religious justifications for war. Together, they explore just war theory, Christian nationalism, the witness of the early church, and what it would mean to take Jesus’ command to love our enemies seriously. Drawing from his years of peacemaking work—from living in Iraq during the mass bombing of Baghdad to advocating against the death penalty, gun violence, and war—Shane invites us to consider that the way of Jesus may offer a different kind of courage than the way of the sword. If you’ve ever struggled to reconcile Christianity with war and violence, or with the ways God’s name has been used to justify harm, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to wrestle and reflect. Continue to learn from Shane Claiborne: www.shaneclaiborne.com Instagram: @shane.claiborne Red Letter Christians Read Shane’s Books: Rethinking Life: Embracing the Sacredness of Every Person The Irresistible Revolution Jesus for President And more Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Can Doubt Help Us Grow? | Meredith Miller

What if doubt isn’t a sign that your faith is falling apart? After a short break, Holy Uncertain is back for Season Two with a conversation about doubt, faith, and what happens when the questions we were taught to fear become part of how we grow. In this episode, hosts Chris McLeod and Lauren Ranzino are joined by pastor, writer, and author Meredith Miller to explore how many of us inherited faith systems where certainty was treated as strength and doubt was treated as danger. Meredith, author of Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn’t Have to Heal From, helps us rethink what it means to hold questions without shame—and what it might look like to build a faith that doesn’t collapse when life gets complicated. Together, they talk about the difference between a faith built like a tower and a faith woven like a web, why questioning can be a normal and necessary part of growth, and how adults can begin to heal from the ways they were taught to relate to God, the Bible, and themselves. If you’ve ever felt afraid that your doubts meant you were losing your faith, this conversation offers a more generous way to imagine what might be happening instead. Continue learning from Meredith Miller: www.meredithannemiller.com Instagram: @meredithannemiller Substack Read Meredith’s Books: Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn’t Have to Heal From Wonder: 52 Conversations to Help Kids Fall in Love with Scripture Reweaving Devotional (for adults) Use Code: podcast for 50% off Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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What We Learned from Season One (And What’s Next)

After twelve episodes exploring faith, doubt, and everything in between, we’re taking a moment to reflect. What has changed in us? What questions are we still holding? And what’s next? In this Season One wrap-up, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod revisit the voices and ideas that shaped this first chapter—from rethinking how we read the Bible to expanding our understanding of the gospel, from stories of harm and healing to the hope that people can change. They reflect on what it means to listen with humility, to stay curious, and to let uncertainty open us up rather than shut us down. Whether you’ve been with us from the beginning or are just finding the show, this episode is an invitation: to keep asking honest questions, to make space for new perspectives, and to trust that you’re not alone in the process. Plus, we share what’s ahead for the next season and the topics we’re excited to explore. Spread the word about the podcast, catch up on episodes you’ve missed, and we’ll see you in about a month. Have a question or topic you want us to explore in future episodes? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Why Are Christians Divided About Justice? | Joash Thomas

Justice is central to the teachings of the Bible—so why has it become so contested within Christianity? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by priest, theologian, and author Fr. Joash Thomas to discuss how history, culture, and power have shaped the Western church’s understanding of justice, and what might be lost when care for the vulnerable becomes secondary to ideology or certainty. Drawing from his own story—growing up in India as part of an ancient Christian tradition and later working within American politics—Joash offers a perspective that challenges the ways many of us have come to understand justice, faith, and what it means to follow Jesus. This conversation invites a broader, more global view of Christianity—one that learns from traditions outside the Western church and re-centers the life and teachings of Jesus as a call to love, humility, and care for others. If you’ve ever wondered why justice has become so complicated within the church—or felt disillusioned by the divide—this episode offers a thoughtful place to wrestle and reflect. Continue to learn from Joash Thomas: www.joashpthomas.com Instagram: @joashpthomas Substack: Masala Chai Theology with Fr. Joash P. Thomas Read Joash’s Book: The Justice of Jesus Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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What Can Mythology Teach Us About The Bible? | John Bucher

What can the study of stories teach us about the Bible? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Chris McLeod and Lauren Ranzino are joined by mythologist, storyteller, and Executive Director of the Joseph Campbell Foundation, John Bucher, to explore how stories shape the way we understand faith, scripture, and the world around us. Together, they unpack what “myth” really means—and why it has less to do with something being false and more to do with how humans make meaning. Through conversation spanning everything from Harry Potter to ancient texts, John invites us to reconsider how we read the Bible: not just as history to be proven, but as story that can transform the way we see ourselves, God, and the world. Along the way, they wrestle with belief, doubt, and the role of storytelling in shaping a life of faith—asking what might become possible if we approached scripture with curiosity instead of certainty. If you’ve ever felt stuck between taking the Bible literally or leaving it behind entirely, this conversation offers a different way forward. Continue learning from John Bucher: www.tellingabetterstory.com Instagram: @tellingabetterstory Joseph Campbell Foundation: https://www.jcf.org/ Read John’s Books: The Storytelling Almanac: A Weekly Guide To Telling A Better Story And many more. Take John’s Courses: The Shared Heroes’ Journey: Myth and Social Change The Mystic Wizard of Oz Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Good Friday Reflection

In place of our usual episode this week, we’re offering a short Good Friday reflection—an invitation to pause, to grieve, and to sit with what is broken before rushing to what comes next. Co-host Lauren Ranzino sits with the weight of a broken world, while holding onto both grief and hope. Today, we take a beat. We make space for what breaks our hearts. And we remember: this is not the end of the story. We’ll be back next week with a full episode. Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Do We Need to Rethink Church? | Tommy Preson Phillips

What is church actually supposed to look like? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and musician Tommy Preson Phillips to explore why so many people are rethinking the way church has been practiced. Tommy, co-author of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, shares why so many people are walking away from church—not because they’ve lost faith, but because they no longer see Jesus reflected in the systems they’ve inherited. Together, they examine how layers of tradition, power, and cultural assumptions have shaped modern church structures, and what it might look like to strip things back to something more honest, relational, and rooted in the way of Jesus. From the early church’s radically inclusive communities to the rise of institutional models, this conversation wrestles with what’s essential, what might be worth letting go of, and how spiritual community could be reimagined today. If you’ve ever felt disconnected from church but still long for faith, belonging, and a more authentic way of following Jesus, this episode offers a hopeful place to explore. Continue to learn from Tommy Preson Phillips: Substack Instagram: @tommypresonphillips Read Tommy’s Book: Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ by Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips Listen to Tommy’s Music: www.presonphillips.com Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Have Our Beliefs Limited People With Disabilities? | Dr. Amy Kenny

Have our beliefs about God limited people with disabilities from living full lives? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by disabled scholar-practitioner, author, and advocate Dr. Amy Kenny, who also serves as the director of the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown University, to examine the ways Christian theology has often treated disabled people as broken, incomplete, or in need of fixing. Together, they explore how ideas about the fall, healing, and heaven have shaped the church’s relationship to disability—and how those beliefs can reinforce ableism, even when intentions are good. Amy invites us to reconsider familiar biblical stories through the lens of disability theology, asking what we miss when disabled people are treated as objects of ministry rather than trusted theological voices. This conversation challenges assumptions about healing, access, and belonging, while pointing toward a more expansive vision of the kingdom of God—one where disabled people are not sidelined, but centered. If you’ve ever sensed that the church’s understanding of disability might be too narrow, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect and learn from disabled wisdom. Continue to learn from Dr. Amy Kenny: Instagram: @dramykenny Read Amy’s Books: My Body Is Not a Prayer Request: Disability Justice in the Church My Disability Is Divine: A Joyful Witness That Defies Ableist Nonsense Learn more about the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown: https://disabilityculture.georgetown.edu/ Special thanks to Charlie French for the inspiration and for allowing us to showcase his art. Find him on Instagram: @charliefrenchfineart And visit our YouTube page to view his art at the top of this week's episode. Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Is Evangelism Ever Okay? | Dr. Randy Woodley

Is evangelism always good news? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by theologian, activist, and author Dr. Randy Woodley to rethink one of the most central practices in modern Christianity: evangelism. Dr. Woodley, a theologian and longtime advocate for Indigenous wisdom in the church, invites us to consider how evangelism has often been shaped by Platonic assumptions rather than the teachings of Jesus. Together they explore the difference between sharing good news and imposing belief—and what a more humble, relational approach to faith might look like. Instead of asking how to convert people, this episode asks a deeper question: what if the good news of Jesus looks less like persuasion and more like learning, listening, and mutual transformation? If you’ve ever wondered whether the way Christianity has been shared reflects the heart of Jesus, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect. Continue to learn from Dr. Randy Woodley: https://www.randywoodley.com/ Instagram: @eloheheagleswings Substack Read Randy’s Books: Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview: A Decolonized Approach to Christian Doctrine And Many More Learn more and visit Eloheh: https://www.eloheh.org/ Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Can Leaders Make Things Right After Causing Harm? | Joshua Harris

Is there a way for leaders to make things right after causing real harm? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by Joshua Harris, author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, to reflect on purity culture, the damage it caused, and what it looks like to confront the consequences of ideas that shaped an entire generation. Together, they talk about the shame, fear, and distorted theology that purity culture embedded in so many of us—and what happens when a leader begins to listen to the people harmed by their work. Josh shares the long, uneasy process of rethinking his beliefs, stepping away from systems that rewarded certainty, and trying to respond with honesty rather than defensiveness. This conversation doesn’t offer easy closure. Instead, it explores repentance as something slower, costlier, and more complicated than simply a public apology. If you’ve ever wondered whether repair is possible after real harm has been done, this episode offers a thoughtful place to begin. For more from Josh Harris: https://joshharris.com Instagram: @harris.josh Listen to Josh’s Podcast: Clear & Loud with Josh Harris Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

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Can We Stay Connected When We Disagree? | Sara Billups

Are you finding it hard to call yourself a Christian right now—even if you still love Jesus? What do you do when people who share your faith carry beliefs that feel impossible to reconcile? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by writer and journalist Sara Billups to explore how to navigate ideological and theological differences without defaulting to cutting people off—or shutting down curiosity. Sara reflects on how fear-based frameworks from the 80s and 90s shaped so many of us, from rapture narratives and “Left Behind” anxiety to the way politics and religion have become tangled in the American church. Together, they talk about how these inherited theologies still live in our bodies and our communities—and how we can examine them honestly without losing each other. If you’ve ever felt torn between conviction and connection, this episode offers thoughtful language for the way forward. Continue to learn from Sara Billups: www.sarabillups.com Instagram: @sara.billups Threads Substack Read Sara’s Books: Nervous Systems: Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics Orphaned Believers: How a Generation of Christian Exiles Can Find the Way Home Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Do I Stay Christian? | Brian McLaren

At some point, the question shifts. It’s no longer just: What do I believe? It becomes something deeper and more personal: Do I stay Christian? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Chris McLeod and Lauren Ranzino are joined by author, speaker, and theologian Brian McLaren to explore what it means to be a Christian and look at a faith tradition that has, at times, caused real harm or disappointment. Brian discusses the tension between belonging and integrity, doubt and commitment, and the complicated work of deciding whether to stay, leave, or redefine what staying even means. Rather than offering a formula or final answer, this conversation examines the cost and courage involved in each path. What does it look like to remain connected to Christianity without denying its failures? And how do we discern whether staying is an act of faithfulness – or fear? This episode offers language, perspective, and a thoughtful way to sit with these questions. Continue to learn from Brian McLaren: www.brianmclaren.net Center for Action and Contemplation: https://cac.org/ Listen to Brian’s podcast: Learning How to See Read Brian’s Books: Do I Stay Christian?: A Guide for the Doubters, the Disappointed, and the Disillusioned Faith After Doubt: Why Your Beliefs Stopped Working and What to Do About It and MANY MORE here. Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Have I Been Reading the Bible Wrong? | Zach Lambert

How often have you been told that the Bible is clear—only to feel confused, unsettled, or even harmed by the way it’s been taught or used? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and co-founder of the Post-Evangelical Collective, Zach Lambert, to discuss how we might engage Scripture as a tool of healing rather than a weapon of harm. Together, they explore how interpretation is shaped by different lenses—and why questioning the way we’ve learned to read the Bible doesn’t have to mean abandoning it. Instead, they consider how faithful engagement can begin with re-examination and, at times, unlearning. If reading the Bible has ever felt confusing, harmful, or disconnected from the life you’re trying to live, this episode offers a steadier path forward. Continue to learn from Zach Lambert: www.zachwlambert.org Instagram: @zachwlambert Facebook Substack Read Zach’s book: Better Ways to Read the Bible What are you uncertain about? We want to know. Email us at: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

What is the Gospel? | Lisa Sharon Harper

How many times have you asked Jesus into your heart? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, we turn to a question many of us thought we already knew the answer to: What is the gospel? Joined by theologian, activist, and author Lisa Sharon Harper, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod explore how familiar definitions of “the good news” can feel insufficient when we’re facing real grief, suffering, and injustice. This conversation holds space for honesty about doubt and pain, while Lisa shares a broader, more rooted vision of hope—one that isn’t just something we believe, but something we live out through our care for one another and the world around us. If you’ve ever wondered whether the gospel was meant to be more than a ticket into heaven, then this episode is for you. Continue to learn from Lisa Sharon Harper: www.LisaSharonHarper.com Instagram: @lisasharonharper Substack Read Lisa’s incredible books: The Very Good Gospel Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All And MANY MORE here. What are you uncertain about? We want to know. Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

What is Holy Uncertain?

In this first episode of Holy Uncertain, you’re invited into an honest conversation about doubt, belief, and the tension so many of us carry when faith no longer feels simple. Whether you’ve spent your whole life in the church, stepped away entirely, or are somewhere in between, this episode names a reality many people experience but rarely talk about out loud. You’ll hear from hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod on why this podcast exists, how it came to be, and why uncertainty isn’t a failure of faith—but often the beginning of something deeper. If you’ve ever felt alone in your questions, this episode reminds you that you’re not—and that wrestling with belief can be a meaningful, even sacred, part of the journey. New episodes drop every Friday. Have a question or topic you want us to explore? Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.