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Getting Smart Podcast

Getting Smart

This podcast has over 500 episodes highlighting developing trends in K-12 education, postsecondary and lifelong learning. Each week, Getting Smart team members interview students, leading authors, experts and practitioners in research, tech, entrepreneurship and leadership to bring listeners innovative and actionable strategies in education leadership.

Be sure to also check out GettingSmart.com to stay on the cutting edge of innovations in learning.

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September 16 · 51 min· Video
Khan Academy's founder on AI: "Hope isn't a strategy" | Sal Khan
Will AI upend education as we know it, or just get absorbed into the systems we already have? In this episode, host Nate McClennen talks with Sal Khan, founder and CEO of Khan Academy, about where AI is actually headed in schools, in the workforce, and in daily life. Sal shares his real thesis on the so-called "AI jobs apocalypse" and what he thinks the next five years actually look like. They talk through durable skills, what they really are, why they're hard to measure, and how Sal's new Khan-TED Institute is trying to change that. Sal also shares how his own thinking on AI and learning has evolved, and what he tells his own kids about navigating all of this right now. Guest Links Sal's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/khanacademy/ Sal's X (Twitter): https://x.com/salkhanacademy Khan Academy: https://www.khanacademy.org/ Schoolhouse.World: https://schoolhouse.world/
September 9 · 45 min· Video
Are schools collecting too much data? | Dr. Kelly Page
Digital badges and credentials promise to finally show what a learner actually knows. Dr. Kelly Page says that promise has a dark side nobody's talking about. In this episode, host Mason Pashia talks with Dr. Kelly Page, a social design ethnographer and author of "When Credentials Cause Harm: Unpacking the Risks of Verifiable Learning and Work Records." Kelly has spent years documenting how well-intentioned credentialing systems can end up excluding, surveilling, or flattening the very people they're supposed to empower. They get into who actually controls a learner's record, why some of the most marginalized communities are also the most wary of the video documentation these systems rely on, and why more data isn't the same as the right data. Kelly makes the case for a future built on self-sovereign data, where students and workers, not districts or vendors, own and control their own records, and shares practical advice for school leaders on what to ask before adopting any new credentialing technology. Guest Links Kelly's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkellypage/ Live What You Love (LWYL Studio): lwylstudio.com When Credentials Cause Harm (book): https://www.amazon.com/When-Credentials-Cause-Harm-Verifiable/dp/1969861029
September 4 · 57 min· Video
Catching Up: Meta's Billion-Dollar Payout, AI Search Bias, and Fixing Student Voice
In this episode of Catching Up, Nate McClennen and Mason Pashia get into what happens after a $2.5 billion settlement lands, and whether "fund real life" is actually a better answer than another wave of mental health apps. They also talk through a study showing AI models recommend completely different schools depending on which one you ask, and why that's a bigger deal than it sounds. From there, the conversation turns to a real tension in AI and education right now: efficiency versus efficacy. Nate makes the case that the real opportunity isn't faster lesson planning, it's building AI tools around what learning science already tells us works, things like spaced practice, real-time feedback, and targeted instruction. He also breaks down a simple way to think about how school systems actually learn, separating implementation, innovation, and continuous improvement, and why mixing them up is often where districts get stuck. Mason brings a deep dive on moving past tokenistic student surveys toward real intergenerational co-design, with some genuinely striking examples, a student-drafted AI policy bill that passed 82 to 16, and the Kentucky Student Voice Team's constitutional lawsuit against their own state. They wrap up with something a little lighter: a living room full of guitars at a family wedding, and a pottery shop in Illinois that's run entirely on the honor system, two small reminders of what real human connection still looks like. Links If Social Media Companies Owe Billions, Let's Fund What Kids Need Taylor Lorenz in the Guardian PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP https://whiteboardadvisors.docsend.com/view/aka3amitbucqs8f7 Kentucky Student Voice Team (KSVT) Youth Power Fund
September 2 · 32 min· Video
Janice K. Jackson Ran Chicago Public Schools. Here's What She'd Change. | Janice K. Jackson
Public education is facing a moment it hasn't seen in decades: shrinking enrollment, an explosion of school choice options, and real questions about who should even be in charge of a district's decisions. In this episode, host Mason Pashia talks with Dr. Janice K. Jackson, former CEO of Chicago Public Schools, the nation's third-largest school district, and current executive director of the Aspen Institute's Education and Society program. Janice led CPS under mayoral control and has watched the district's shift toward a hybrid, partially elected school board unfold in real time, all while Denver debates moving in the opposite direction. Mason and Janice start with technology and screen time, why Janice thinks blanket phone bans miss the real issue in classrooms, and why she worries restrictive policies often land hardest on low-income students. They talk through what it actually looks like to involve parents in decisions rather than just informing them after the fact. The conversation then turns to governance. Janice explains the real trade-offs between mayoral control and an elected school board, why she believes accountability gets harder as more people are put in charge of a district, and what she's watching in Chicago's board election this fall. They close by digging into the rise of microschools and alternative school models, the tension between competency-based learning and a transcript system that hasn't meaningfully changed in over a century, and what public schools can realistically do with underused buildings as enrollment declines. Guest Links Face the Nation CBS Interview — https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-janice-jackson-on-face-the-nation-january-31-2021/ The Education Equation Podcast/Interview — https://youtu.be/6g7b6Nz_XXw Aspen Institute Education & Society Program — https://www.aspeninstitute.org/programs/education-and-society-program/
August 26 · 50 min· Video
The $1,700 School Tax Credit Public Schools Should Be Talking About | Antonio Parés
A new federal tax credit is launching in January 2027 that could bring real money into public schools, and most districts don't even know it exists yet. In this episode, host Nate McClennen talks with Antonio Parés, founder and principal of Walnut Hill Workshop, about the Education Freedom Tax Credit, also known as the Federal Tax Credit for Scholarships, or FTCS. The program lets any taxpayer redirect up to $1,700 to a scholarship-granting organization, or SGO, at zero net cost to themselves. Antonio breaks down how the credit actually works for donors, how school districts can take advantage of it, and which fees and expenses qualify. He makes the case that public education, not just private schools, is in a strong position to benefit from this program, since districts already have the donor relationships, trust, and infrastructure that most new scholarship organizations are starting from scratch. Nate and Antonio also dig into the still-unresolved 90/10 rule, which will determine how much of every donated dollar has to go directly to scholarships versus administrative costs, why shared SGO infrastructure across districts might make sense, and what concrete steps superintendents, school board members, and district leaders should be taking right now, well before Treasury's final guidance comes out in September. Whether you're new to this topic or already tracking it closely, this conversation lays out what's known, what's still uncertain, and how to start preparing. Learn more about Antonio's work at Walnut Hill Workshop: https://www.linkedin.com/company/walnut-hill-workshop/ Related reading: "Want Federal Tax Credit Money for Public Schools? Here's What to Do Now" (The 74): https://www.the74million.org/article/want-federal-tax-credit-money-for-public-schools-heres-what-to-do-now/
August 19 · 32 min· Video
Are We Designing Schools for Systems or for People? | Jane Shore
Dr. Jane Shore is an education researcher, school co-founder, and author of "People-Based Learning: The Future of Learning is Human" (Routledge, 2026). She joins host Rebecca Midles to talk about her three-part framework, connect, reflect, and affect, and why the future of education depends on human connection, not just technology. Jane is the founder of School of Thought PHL, a school built at the intersection of learning science, neuroscience, and visual thinking. Jane's Book: https://www.routledge.com/People-Based-Learning-The-Future-of-Learning-is-Human/Shore/p/book/9781041089858 Jane's School (School of Thought PHL): https://revolutionschool.org/ Jane's Substack: https://substack.com/@schoolofthought Jane's Edutopia Profile: https://www.edutopia.org/profile/jane-shore/ Jane's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-r-shore/
August 14 · 49 min· Video
Why 'Why Am I Learning This?' Is the Most Important Question in Education | Edson Barton
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, host Mason Pashia sits down with Edson Barton, CEO and co-founder of YouScience, to explore what it truly means to build a credentialing system that delivers value to learners, not just paperwork. Drawing on Utah's landmark House Bill 260, which mandates stackable credentials for all graduates and positions YouScience as the infrastructure powering that vision, Edson and Mason unpack what an end-to-end career readiness ecosystem looks like when it is grounded in science, driven by aptitude, and designed to answer every student's most fundamental question: why am I learning this? Edson shares his own winding, non-linear education story as a lens into why the current system fails so many passionate learners, and how aptitude-based guidance, layered with stackable industry certifications, can illuminate a meaningful path from middle school discovery all the way to a first career credential. The conversation covers the grain size of credentials, the challenge of interoperability and learner wallets, how to bring skeptical parents on board, and why the skills recognition movement, accelerated by AI, may finally have the technology to match its ambition. For education leaders looking to move from compliance to coherence, this episode is a compelling and practical case for reimagining what student readiness can mean.
August 12 · 49 min· Video
Catching Up: Job Cliff, Enrollment Drop, and the Hidden Crisis No One Is Talking About?
In this episode of Catching Up, Nate McClennen and Mason Pashia tackle three of the most urgent tensions in modern education. They explore a landmark Penn study revealing that while AI can streamline lesson planning, it may inadvertently erode student intrinsic motivation and engagement. The hosts also dive into the "truancy triangle"—a framework for understanding chronic absenteeism that balances policy and wraparound support with the often-overlooked necessity of designing learning experiences that students genuinely find relevant and worth attending. The conversation extends to the broader future of work, contrasting the fears of an "AI job apocalypse" with the reality of an impending demographic job cliff in sectors like healthcare, skilled trades, and education. Balancing these heavy topics, the episode highlights the power of real-world learning, featuring New York City's Summer Youth Employment Program—which leverages World Cup excitement to connect students to paid, hands-on projects—and a "good guy" neighborhood microgrant initiative designed to strengthen community ties. Join Nate and Mason for an honest, layered conversation on how school leaders can cut through the noise to design schools that foster belonging and meaningful outcomes.
August 5 · 31 min· Video
How Can Districts Turn Jobs Into Degrees to Build Stronger Teacher Pipelines? | Joe Ross
Reach University is rethinking higher education with a simple but powerful idea: turn jobs into degrees. In this conversation, Joe Ross shares how apprenticeship degrees can help districts grow their own teachers by investing in the talent already in their buildings. From paraeducators to support staff, this model creates affordable pathways into the profession while strengthening local workforce pipelines. The episode explores teacher prep, higher education, lifelong learning, and new pathways that expand opportunity without adding debt. Outline (00:00) Introduction: Joe Ross & Reach University (06:26) I Love That You Guys Look at Learning Environments (07:37) How the Apprenticeship Degree Model Works (17:24) Expanding Beyond K-12: Healthcare & Workforce Equity (26:43) Next Steps: How to Get Started with Reach University Links Read the full blog here LinkedIn Reach University
July 29 · 38 min· Video
Tell Story: Tyson Yunkaporta on Deep Time, Creolization, and Education
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia and Jason Cummins sit down with Tyson Yunkaporta for a thought-provoking conversation on Indigenous knowledge, relational learning, and the role of schools as spaces for dialogue, contradiction, and meaning-making. Together, they explore how language shapes worldview, why Indigenous leadership brings vital governance protocols to education, and how schools can move beyond reinforcing boundaries to becoming places where relationships, complexity, and shared understanding can grow. Outline (00:00) Introductions & Indigenous Identity (06:54) Language, Knowledge & Relational Thinking (11:24) Creolization & Indigenous Agency (18:59) Schools as Sites of Conflict & Culture (24:41) Good Protocols & Indigenous Leadership (31:42) Why Do This Work & Deep Time Links Read the full blog American Indian and Indigenous Studies Program Declaration of Peace for Indigenous Australians and Nature: A Legal Pluralist Approach to First Laws and Earth Laws LinkedIn Deakin Research
July 22 · 52 min· Video
How are theatre education and gamification related? | Gersom de Koning
On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia sits down with Gersom de Koning to explore theater education as a transformative practice. Their conversation examines how drama builds confidence, collaboration, leadership, and transferable skills while also offering a powerful model for gamification, exploration, and learning through productive failure. From arts integration and technical theater to the future of live performance in an AI world, this episode highlights why theater belongs at the center of meaningful learning. Outline (0:00) Introduction & Background (2:01) Gersem's Journey into Theater (5:41) What Makes Great Theater Education (13:40) Drama, Gamification & Learning (26:03) Failure, Collaboration & Leadership (40:32) The Future of Theater & Drama Education Links Read the full blog here LinkedIn Gersom de Koning Official Site Proper Job Gradcast Episode 19 Creatively Christian: The Creative Power of Limitations
July 15 · 27 min
Transformation Journey: Liberty Public Schools
In this episode of The Getting Smart Podcast with Liberty Public Schools, Rebecca Midles introduces how Liberty Public Schools, located just north of Kansas City and serving about 12,000 students, is reimagining learning through real-world experiences and personalized pathways. The conversation features Julie Moore, Assistant Superintendent for Innovation and Learning, and Sarah Wickham, Director of Real-World Learning, who share the story behind Edge, a microschool embedded within Liberty High School. What began as a vision inspired by the success of EPiC Elementary and shaped by site visits, collaborative design, and even notes scribbled on a napkin became a districtwide learning journey. Rather than centering only on one innovative program, this episode explores how starting small, learning through iteration, and staying grounded in authentic, student-centered experiences can help an entire district transform. Outline (00:00) Introduction (11:14) Building the Space and Team (17:46) Scaling the Model (21:15) Impact on Students and Educators (25:11) Looking Ahead Links Read the full blog here Liberty Public Schools Julie Moore Sarah Wickham EPIC Elementary School What School Could Be Episode with Liberty EDGE Students
July 1 · 52 min· Video
How Do Schools Build Durable Skills? | Michael Crawford Chris Unger
On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia is joined by Michael Crawford of America Succeeds and Chris Unger of Northeastern University to explore what it really takes to help young people build durable skills. Drawing on a 16-month study of 12 innovative high schools, they discuss how schools can make skills like collaboration, communication, and critical thinking explicit, visible, and measurable through authentic learning, reflection, advising, and real-world experiences. The conversation highlights the 3-4-3 framework for durable skills development and offers a compelling look at how student agency, professional identity, and informed career pathways are shaped when learning extends beyond the classroom. Outline (0:00) Introductions & Origin Stories (5:08) The 16-Month Research Study (32:59) Surfacing Evidence of Durable Skills (33:00) Communicating the Value of Innovative Schools (48:02) The 3-4-3 Framework Links Watch the full video here LinkedIn | Michael Crawford Linked In | Chris Unger Igniting the Flame: How Motivation Catalyzes Student Potential in Horizon 3 Education What Happens when you Launch Students' Interests into the World? Q&A with Michael Crawford (Youth Today) Chris Unger - A Revolution in Education Podcast America Succeeds Northeastern University Graduate School of Education
July 1 · 48 min· Video
How can Empathy Interviews Change Education for the Better? | Chris McNutt
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia talks with Chris McNutt of Human Restoration Project about how empathy interviews can help schools move beyond traditional surveys and toward more meaningful, student-centered change. The conversation explores Polaris, a platform designed to gather and analyze qualitative student voice data at scale, and highlights how districts are using these insights to strengthen belonging, improve inclusion, and redesign learning experiences. From student agency and Portrait of a Graduate work to ethical questions around AI and data privacy, this episode offers a compelling look at how schools can listen better—and act with greater clarity and trust. Outline (00:00) Introduction (07:11) Introducing Polaris (18:10) Student Agency & Action (30:02) AI Ethics & Data Privacy (35:33) Building a Broader Movement Links Read the full blog Chris McNutt's LinkedIn Human Restoration Project Podcast Human Restoration Project Website Organization Overview
June 24 · 28 min
What If Every Graduate Left With a Plan? | Dr. Whitney Oakley
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Shawnee Caruthers sits down with Dr. Whitney Oakley, superintendent of Guilford County Schools, to explore the Guilford Guarantee—a bold district commitment that every graduate leaves high school with college credit, an industry-recognized credential, or a meaningful work-based learning experience. The conversation highlights what it takes to build real-world learning at scale, from family and student listening to employer partnerships, advising systems, and cross-sector alignment. Dr. Oakley shares how Guilford County is turning a promise into a sustainable strategy for equity, access, and future-ready pathways for all learners. Outline (00:00) Introduction (04:45) The Guilford Guarantee (12:29) Aligning the System (19:05) Community Listening & Industry Partners (22:53) Sustaining the Promise Links Read the full blog here Watch the full video here LinkedIn Guilford County Schools Whitney Oakley - Chiefs for Change GCS Superintendent Dr. Whitney Oakley talks vision
June 17 · 47 min
How Can Classrooms Teach Democracy? | Dr. Douglas Yacek
Outline (0:00) Introduction & Ancient Grains (6:45) Teaching Across Contexts (11:39) The Stimulation Gap (17:36) The Hook, Pitch, Awakening & Strengthening Framework (28:14) Civics, Democracy & the Classroom (37:19) Civic Virtues & the Role of Schools Links Read the full blog here Watch the full video here Dr. Douglas Yacek LinkedIn
June 10 · 39 min
What Do Parents Really Want? | Keri Rodrigues
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia sits down with Keri Rodrigues, founder and president of the National Parents Union, to explore the power of parent voice in education. From school safety and special education to report cards, trust, AI readiness, and student data privacy, Keri shares why families must be treated as true partners in shaping better learning experiences. This conversation is a powerful reminder that meaningful school change starts by listening to the people closest to students. Outline (00:00) Introduction (01:32) Keri's Origin Story (07:26) What Parents Are Frustrated About (12:20) School-Parent Communication & Engagement (24:03) Report Cards, Outcomes & Transparency (31:26) Technology, Data Privacy & Duty of Care Links Watch the full video here Read the full blog here LinkedIn National Parents Union
June 5 · 54 min
Catching Up: Student Influencers, AI's Mirror Problem & The Power of Early Work Experience
In this episode of Catching Up, Nate McClennen and Mason Pashia explore the ideas shaping the future of learning and work—from the link between school innovation and enrollment demand to the rise of student influencers as a new form of district storytelling. They also dig into AI's growing role in education, including bias in feedback systems, the homogenizing effect of generative tools, and how AI may free teachers to spend more time on uniquely human work. The conversation also highlights the importance of agency, internships, and real-world learning, while ending with reflections on poetry, humility, and the power of noticing the world around us. Outline (0:00) Intro & Episode Preview (10:14) Student Influencers (12:51) AI Bias & Homogenization (27:01) Deep Dive: Agency & AI's Role in Education (50:17) What's That Song? Links Watch the full video here Read the full blog here Can Student Influencers Help This District Rebuild Enrollment? Personalized Bias in AI Writing Feedback Percentage of High School and College Students Ages 16 Through 24 Who Were Employed Shut Out: High School Students Learn About Careers but Can't Try One That Pays Student Agency Boosts Engagement and Readiness Agency in America We're About to Get Agency Wrong
June 3 · 43 min
How Do We Teach Conversation? | Liza Garonzik
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Nate McClennen talks with Liza Garoznik, founder and CEO of Real Discussion, about one of the biggest questions in education today: how do we teach and assess durable skills like communication, listening, and collaboration? Framed by the rise of AI and growing concern about a "conversation crisis," the discussion explores why authentic interaction must be developed alongside artificial intelligence. Liza shares the origin story behind Real Discussion, explains the REAL framework—Relate, Excerpt, Ask, Listen—and offers practical insight into how schools can embed conversation skills into core academics while also measuring student growth, belonging, and engagement. Outline (0:00) Introduction & Durable Skills Framework (3:40) Liza's Story & Real Discussion Origins (11:23) The Conversation Crisis & Authentic Interaction (21:36) The REAL Framework & Teaching Discussion Skills (26:22) Assessment & Measuring Student Growth (34:19) Practical Tools & Future of Real Discussion Links Watch the full blog here Watch the full video here LinkedIn R.E.A.L. Discussion Liza Garonzik on Teaching Tomorrow's Human Skills Grade Discussion Skills, Not Discussions
May 27 · 36 min
How Does Roadtrip Nation Help It's Students Find Passion? | Road Trip Nation Students
In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia sits down with Joana Ponce and Catherine Alves, featured in Roadtrip Nation's Explore Your Interests, for a thoughtful conversation about passion, purpose, and the messy reality of career exploration. Together, they reflect on how exposure to new people and possibilities helped them rethink the idea of a single "right" path, and why learning to navigate uncertainty may be one of the most important skills young people can build. From journalism and activism to climate work and community-based learning, this episode is a powerful reminder that fulfilling futures are rarely linear—and that sometimes the most important step is simply staying open to what comes next. Outline (0:00) Introduction & Poetry (2:10) Non-Linear Career Paths (5:14) What Is Roadtrip Nation? (22:09) Passion, Purpose & Career Advice (29:11) What's Next Links Watch the full video here Read the full blog here Roadtrippers' Journeys Roadtrip Nation

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