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Face-Off

Airwave Media

The nuclear age began in secrecy and scientific ambition. The story is familiar, but its implications have never left us. A bomb created in a moment of wartime urgency became the foundation of a global order defined by terror and deterrence. But what happens when that global order breaks down?

Face-Off: Nuclear Anarchy is an 8-part series tracing the arc of nuclear danger from the Manhattan Project to the Cuban Missile Crisis to the abandonment of the New START treaty and the shattering of the nonproliferation order today. We take you behind the scenes of key moments and key places of the nuclear story to shed light upon the present.

In each episode, Pulitzer-winning journalist Jane Perlez interviews leading participants in the nuclear conversation: David Sanger, Tong Zhao, Rose Gotemoeller, Alex Wellerstein and more. Plus, Matthew Bunn, of Harvard's Managing the Atom project, joins for a wrap-up segment to put everything in context. 

We are living in a more crowded and unstable nuclear world—where proliferation spreads not through ideology or conquest, but through fear, hedging, and the collapse of confidence. Face-Off asks who will hold the line, and for how long? 

Episodes out every Tuesday in October & November 2026. 

This project is made possible by the Belfer Center at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Managing the Atom Project. Our special guest is Professor Matthew Bunn, Faculty Chair of the Managing the Atom Project (@matthew-bunn.bsky.social).

Face-Off is produced and reported by Jane Perlez. Our production team is Nina Porzucki, Louise Morris, and Frank Zhou. Sound design and mixing by John Myers and Rowhome Productions.

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  • 24 episodes
  • Avg 33 min
  • English
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  • S3 · E14
    August 28 · 1 min

    Introducing Asian Innovation for Social Good

    While we're busy working on a new season of Face-Off, we thought our audience might be interested in learning about a new series called Asian Innovation for Social Good, produced by our friends at Foreign Policy. Across Asia, philanthropy is expanding from traditional grant-making into a more active role as catalytic capital, taking on risk that commercial investment avoids and public funding cannot yet reach. Climate, global health, and inclusive development now draw partnerships that cross borders and sectors, financing early-stage innovation where the returns are uncertain and the time horizons are long. The Philanthropy Asia Summit is where those alliances take shape, and this four-part series, recorded at the sixth edition in Singapore, follows host Rob Sachs into the rooms where funders, operators, and policy leaders are testing what collaborative giving can achieve. Each episode examines the role philanthropy plays when the maps drawn for an earlier era no longer fit the terrain, and what becomes possible when ambition meets disciplined execution. Find the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • May 26 · 27 min

    Introducing Foreign Policy's The Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women

    We’re hard at work on Season 4 of Face-Off. And we have some great episodes in the works, but while we’re in production I wanted to share an episode from a different podcast that I thought you might enjoy…. When people discuss environmental solutions, they often mention its impact on our lives. This can include ensuring parts of the planet remain inhabitable in the face of extreme temperatures, maintaining biodiversity, and preventing the oxidation of our oceans. But there’s another case to be made: Investing in our planet makes sense economically. Conservation can deliver high returns on investment. According to the ⁠International Monetary Fund⁠, every dollar spent on conservation and other green projects may yield up to seven dollars within five years. This is because of jobs created, food systems improved, and a reduction in greenhouse gases, among other outcomes. On this episode of The Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women, we speak with Jody Allen, a philanthropist, businesswoman, and conservationist. She cares deeply about protecting wildlife and our planet. Allen is also the owner of the Seattle Seahawks. Host Zainab Salbi, who co-founded Daughters for Earth with Allen, talks with Allen about the interplay between philanthropy and conservation. We also speak with two African wildlife conservations: Dr. Shivani Bhalla, founder of ⁠Ewaso Lions⁠ in Kenya, and Dr. Moreangels Mbizah, founder of ⁠Wildlife Conservation Action⁠ in Zimbabwe. They share what community-led conservation strategies look like and what they have seen work best to decrease human-wildlife conflict. The Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women is a podcast from Foreign Policy, supported this season by Daughters for Earth. Guests Interviewed: Jody Allen, Founder of Daughters for Earth Dr. Shivani Bhalla, Founder of ⁠Ewaso Lions⁠ Dr. Moreangels Mbizah, Founder of ⁠Wildlife Conservation Action Follow and listen to more episodes of The Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women: https://play.megaphone.fm/jzrwm69essm3zpacrrjmua Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E13
    April 21 · 38 min

    Trump’s War, Xi’s Opportunity: Ambassador Nicholas Burns on Iran’s Hot War

    As this episode is published - on April 21, 2026 - it’s far from clear which direction the war between the US and Iran is headed. Even so, America’s reputation around the world is in decline, to say the least. Trump is unrestrained. He’s invaded Venezuela. Started a war like no other with Iran. Soured relations with traditional US allies in Europe. And not to mention the heavy tariffs he’s imposed across the globe. Trump and Xi Jinping are supposed to meet in a delayed summit in Beijing this spring. What is Beijing thinking? How might China capitalize on this very rocky moment? With so much at stake, we turn to someone who has often been at the forefront of diplomacy: Nicholas Burns, the former US Ambassador to China under President Biden. Our conversation was recorded on April 10th, which is important to note as the news is moving fast, very fast. ***PLEASE TAKE OUR AUDIENCE SURVEY*** It only takes a minute and will help guide the future of Face-Off: https://bit.ly/faceoffsurvey Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E12
    April 7 · 44 min

    Climbing the Great Firewall: Freedom, Censorship, and China’s Internet

    In this episode, we take you inside the Chinese internet. China is currently home to the world's most sophisticated, far-reaching internet censorship regime. Chinese censors are trained to comb the web for off-limits words and phrases. Offending posts often disappear into thin air. And entire US-based platforms like Google, Youtube, Instagram, and Amazon, not to mention the New York Times are all banned. But it’s one thing to talk about the regime and another to live under it. That’s the subject of a great new book, The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet by Yi-Ling Liu. Yi-Ling is an American reporter based in Hong Kong. So today on Face-Off, we hand over the mic to our Associate Producer Frank Zhou for a fascinating conversation with Yi-Ling Liu. Guest: Yi-Ling Liu, Writer & Editor covering AI and Chinese society Further Reading: The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet https://www.yi-lingliu.com/the-wall-dancers ***PLEASE TAKE OUR AUDIENCE SURVEY*** It only takes a minute and will help guide the future of Face-Off: https://bit.ly/faceoffsurvey Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E11
    March 24 · 31 min

    How Far Will China Go for Iran?

    This week: China and Iran. The two countries have close ties and, yet, while China initially condemned the US-Israeli war on Iran, the Chinese government has stayed mostly quiet even as the bombing continues. Meanwhile the Iranian government is doubling down on this friendship. As of this taping, Iran has opened up the Strait of Hormuz to Chinese ships. To learn more about what this all means, Jane interviews Yun Sun, a Senior Fellow at the Stimson Center in Washington where she focuses on China’s relations with other authoritarian regimes. In her most recent article in Foreign Affairs - entitled “Why China Won’t Help Iran” - she points out that China is Iran’s most important partner in the Middle East. But she questions, how important is Iran to China? Guest: Yun Sun, Senior Fellow & Director of the China Program, Stimson Center Further Reading: Why China Won’t Help Iran by Yun Sun, Foreign Affairs: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/why-china-wont-help-iran ***PLEASE TAKE OUR AUDIENCE SURVEY*** It only takes a minute and will help guide the future of Face-Off: https://bit.ly/faceoffsurvey Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E10
    March 17 · 48 min

    Stolen in China, Raised in Texas: Twins Caught Between Two Superpowers

    In this episode, Journalist Barbara Demick talks with Jane about her latest book Daughters of the Bamboo Grove. It’s the story of Chinese twins separated as toddlers. One twin grows up with her family in rural China. The other twin is adopted by an American family in Texas. It’s a haunting, moving narrative about the harsh repercussions of the One-Child policy, and the realities of life in rural China and rural America. Barbara and Jane know each other from their time together as reporters in China. They both lived in Beijing - Barbara the bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times, Jane the bureau chief of the New York Times. Jane thought of her as one of the bravest reporters - always fearless and open to getting the stories of real people. Daughters of the Bamboo Grove is another example of her excellent reporting and her unique ability to shine a light on the lives of ordinary people. Guest: Barbara Demick, author & journalist, former bureau chief in Beijing for the Los Angeles Times Book Recommendations: Daughter’s of the Bamboo Grove by Barbara Demick *Also, we want to hear from you! We have a listener survey that takes less than a minute and we would love to hear your thoughts. Fill out the survey here: https://bit.ly/faceoffsurvey Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E9
    March 3 · 25 min

    The Black Box: Inside China’s Military Mind

    We’re back! We’ll be publishing five brand new episodes of Face-Off bi-weekly starting today. In this episode, we welcome back Zhou Bo, a retired colonel in the People’s Liberation Army. Xi Jinping has unleashed a massive purge of the Chinese army, the biggest since the early days of Communist China. Nearly three dozen senior generals have been demoted or disappeared. Almost all have been accused of corruption. Then this past January the most senior general, General Zhang Youxia, essentially Xi Jinping's number two in the army, disappeared. No-one outside of China, and not many inside China, seem to know what’s going on. There's a reason the Chinese military is known as a black box. With Colonel Zhou, Jane discusses everything from Greenland to Taiwan to China’s military strength in the South China Sea. Guest: Zhou Bo, Retired Senior Colonel in the People’s Liberation Army Book Recommendations: Should The World Fear China by Zhou Bo China’s Quest for Military Supremacy by Joel Wuthnow and Phillip Saunders Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E8
    January 20 · 53 min

    The Chip Whisperer

    An in-depth interview about the rise of Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang

  • S3 · E7
    January 13 · 49 min

    The Charm Offensive That Isn't

    As Trump trashes American soft power, can China fill the void? A top Chinese academic explains why Beijing struggles to win hearts and minds and why being feared isn't the same as being loved. Plus: How American influencers are going viral in China. Guest: Da Wei, Professor, Tsinghua University Book Recommendations Sparks: China’s Underground Historians and their Battle for the Future by Ian Johnson Other Rivers: A Chinese Education by Peter Hessler Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E6
    January 6 · 43 min

    Clash on the High Seas

    High-seas drama as Chinese warships hunt Filipino fishing boats in their own waters. Beijing is testing America's oldest Pacific ally with dangerous games of maritime chicken. With Philippine politics in flux, can Manila hold the line or will China fracture another US alliance? Guest: Marites Vitug, Filipino Journalist & Author, editor-at-large for Rappler and chair of the Journalism for Nation Building Foundation Reading Recommendations Rock Solid: How the Philippines Won Its Maritime Case Against China by Marites Vitug The U.S. and China Are One Misstep Away From War by Chris Rosenbach and Chris Li Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E5
    Dec 16, 2025 · 32 min

    The Rugby Gambit

    The strangest geopolitical deal you've never heard of: Australia trades rugby league spots for an agreement not to make an agreement with China. Papua New Guinea's players get to compete Down Under and in return, China gets locked out of a strategic Pacific island. Sports diplomacy at its most serious. Guest: Oliver Nobetau, Papua New Guinea Government Lawyer & Fellow at the Lowy Institute Book Recommendations Lost In Shangri-La: A True Story of Survival, Adventure and the Most Incredible Rescue Mission of World War 2 by Mitchell Zuckoff If you are looking for other interesting books about China, do check out the China Books Review section of the Asia Society webpage at https://chinabooksreview.com/ Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E4
    Dec 9, 2025 · 35 min

    Rise of the Robots

    "If I was the U.S., I would be terrified." We report from a 1,500+ robot convention in Beijing, and an American robotics expert who's toured China's factories reveals how China is winning the robot race. From assembly lines to hospital wards, humanoid robots are everywhere—and America is falling behind. Guest: Alberto Moel, Robotics Scientist, Professor of Practice in Finance at the University of Hong Kong Book Recommendations: I, Robot by Isaac Asimov The Fourth Age by Byron Reese Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E3
    Dec 2, 2025 · 54 min

    The Xi Factor

    Will Xi Jingping and Donald Trump Go to the Mat?

  • S3 · E2
    Nov 25, 2025 · 52 min

    China's Arms Race

    China is outbuilding America's navy and beating us in hypersonic missiles. Xi has purged corrupt generals to create a military machine loyal only to him. Can China's forces actually win a war? We break down the PLA's transformation from paper tiger to potential superpower. Guest: Zhou Bo, Retired Senior Colonel in the People’s Liberation Army (https://ciss.tsinghua.edu.cn/info/CFExperts/1212) Book Recommendations: Should The World Fear China by Zhou Bo China’s Quest for Military Supremacy by Joel Wuthnow and Phillip Saunders Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S3 · E1
    Nov 4, 2025 · 3 min

    Season 3 Trailer

    In our third season of Face-Off: The US vs China, we’ll explore some of the biggest issues dividing these global powers today: Trump and Xi Jinping, AI, China’s growing military might, and also… robots. Season 3 of Face-Off: US vs China begins Tuesday, November 18th. Join us. Face-Off is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S2 · E16
    Oct 28, 2025 · 18 min

    THE GREATER WAGER EPISODE 5: The Break-Up

    THE GREAT WAGER Episode 5. The break-up: Richard Nixon’s great wager reverberates from the '70s to today While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War. This is the series finale: Episode 5. All of a sudden, it’s less clear if Nixon’s wager is paying off. After years of collaboration and mutual economic benefit, relations between China and the U.S. are at a low point. What does the start of this important relationship reveal about its next chapter? The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network. Book Recommendations: Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing. Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • S2 · E15
    Oct 21, 2025 · 16 min

    THE GREAT WAGER EPISODE 4: Shared Secrets

    THE GREAT WAGER Episode 4. Shared secrets: How The U.S. and China worked together to spy on the Soviet Union While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War. This is Episode 4. The relationship between China and the U.S. is off and running — and now the two countries are collaborating on secret, sensitive intelligence. This installment of The Great Wager includes exclusive information about how Chinese and American intelligence officials agreed to work together against their common rival of many years. The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network. Book Recommendations: Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing. Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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