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Dancing with Systems

Wayne Visser & Sally Uren

Dancing with Systems (co-hosted by Dr Sally Uren and Prof. Dr Wayne Visser) aims to help change agents from across the spectrum - in business, government, academia, and civil society - better understand the complex set of dynamics at play in the extraordinary systems transitions currently underway. 


This debut season will explore how six key systems - energy, food, finance, technology, nature and health - are evolving, examine where the key sticking points to transformation lie, and ask what actions will help unlock meaningful systems change.

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  • 4 episodes
  • Avg 46 min
  • English

Episodes 4

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  • S1 · E4
    September 29 · 40 min

    S1.E4: Making Nature an Investable Asset: The Finance System Transition

    How finance underpins all sector transitions—and how we fix the flow The finance system underpins almost every major transition underway, acting both as a root cause of past systemic failures and as the ultimate lever for future solutions. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore how to unlock financial flows to accelerate transitions across energy, food, nature, and health—despite political headwinds, market backlashes, and regulatory hurdles. Guests Paul Dickinson — Co-Founder and Managing Partner, Transition Value Partners; Co-Host, Outrage + Optimism Claudine Blamey — Chief Sustainability Officer, Aviva What We Cover Why finance acts as a "bird's-eye view" underpinning all other systems transitions Navigating political pushback, "Planet Trump vs. Planet Biden," and anti-ESG headwinds Reframing policy makers as "policy collaborators" rather than adversaries Shift in corporate action: Moving beyond net zero to climate adaptation, community resilience, and risk management How to turn nature into an investable asset class through ecosystem services and catchment-level multi-solving The role of individual consumers and investors in driving broader financial systems change Key Quotes "We need to reframe the policy maker as the policy collaborator... to unleash the investment which will give us clean and more wealthy societies." — Paul Dickinson "Our vision is for nature to become an investable asset... creating the product and the customer so that nature yields a return." — Claudine Blamey References Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems Transition Value Partners: transitionvalue.com CDP (formerly Carbon Disclosure Project) Aviva: aviva.com Flood Action Coalition This Episode's Dance Techno meets Ballet — Techno for its compulsive, irresistible beat and our hyper-fixation on money; Ballet for the discipline, choreography, and strength required when finance is orchestrated right. Next episode The Health System Transition

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  • S1 · E3
    September 1 · 50 min

    S1.E3: Redesigning the Food System From the Soil Up

    The food system is full of big numbers — and even bigger tensions. In this episode, Wayne and Sally dive deep into one of our most culturally embedded and vital global systems. From soil health and water usage to biodiversity and the power of food to bring people together, the food system connects deeply to human health, culture, and planetary boundaries. But with food accounting for a third of global greenhouse gas emissions and millions facing acute hunger or unaffordable healthy diets, the need for a transition toward regenerative agriculture and systemic change has never been more urgent. Is regenerative agriculture the ultimate solution? How can we empower farmers at the center of this shift? And what does it take to transform a system from the inside out? Wayne and Sally explore these questions alongside three key leaders transforming the food landscape. Guests Andy Cato — Co-founder of Wild Farmed; award-winning farmer and Grammy-nominated musician. Brian Griffith — Executive Chairman of Griffith Foods; fourth-generation leader of a global B2B product development and food ingredient business operating across 30+ countries. Chantelle Nicholson — Award-winning chef, restaurateur, author, and owner of Apricity in London; independent board member for ReLondon and member of City Harvest's Food Council. What We Cover Why the food system accounts for a third of global carbon emissions — and why $2.6 billion people still cannot afford a healthy diet. How regenerative agriculture shifts the focus from chemistry back to biology, restoring soil fertility and water infiltration. Why we must move past the false binary choice between food production and nature restoration. The financial realities facing farmers and the need to align economic incentives through private finance and community support. How B2B food businesses can embed purpose (People, Planet, Performance) across global supply chains. The critical role of culture, taste, and hospitality in changing consumer behaviour without lecturing. Why applied technology in food systems — like precision fermentation or upcycling waste — must serve biology rather than replicate fragile chemical models. Key Quotes "Farming is a long-term business... If we want to give people the courage to embrace change, what you don't want is a scheme that stops and starts." — Andy Cato"Technology in the service of biology — that’s the kind of technology we need." — Andy Cato"Our purpose is that we blend care and creativity to nourish the world. This is our clarion call." — Brian Griffith"Food is something that brings people together and can facilitate change... If you can show people a better way through something accessible, you can plant seeds of change." — Chantelle Nicholson References Wild Farmed — Regenerative farming initiative co-founded by Andy Cato. https://wildfarmed.com/ Griffith Foods — Global product development and food ingredient partner. https://griffithfoods.com/ Apricity — Conscious dining restaurant in London created by Chantelle Nicholson. https://www.apricityrestaurant.com/ This Episode's Dance Like a Tango, the food system involves equal and opposing forces — between business, government, farmers, and consumers. Navigating the transition requires a delicate, coordinated dance between culture, economics, policy, and nature to choreograph real systemic change.

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  • S1 · E1
    August 5 · 52 min

    S1.E1: Why the Energy Transition May Already Be Unstoppable

    Why the energy transition might already be unstoppable. The energy transition isn't coming — it's already here. In our first episode, Wayne and Sally unpack why the shift to renewables has passed the point of no return, who's leading the charge globally, and what a truly fair transition looks like in practice. Guests Kingsmill Bond — Senior Principal, Ember Rhian Kelly — Chief Sustainability Officer, SSE What We Cover How systems change — and why the energy transition has hit its tipping point Why renewables are winning on economics, not just ethics The surprising truth about where the transition is moving fastest (hint: not the UK or US) AI and energy demand — threat or opportunity? What a just transition looks like on the ground, from affordable housing to supply chain ethics The levers that will complete the transition — and the things we should stop spending money on Key Quotes "We are past the tipping point. Fossil fuel demand has peaked and will be clearly in decline by the end of the decade." — Kingsmill Bond "Speed is justice. Those who stick with the old system are going to be left behind." — Kingsmill Bond "Little steps are as important as big steps." — Rhian Kelly References Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems (the inspiration for this podcast) The Multi-Level Perspective framework for systems change Ember: ember-energy.org SSE: sse.com This Episode's Dance The Quickstep — fast, well-choreographed, and flying across the floor. With a dash of Breakdancing for good measure, because this transition has to be community-led from the ground up. Next episode The Technology System Transition

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  • S1 · E2
    August 5 · 42 min

    S1.E2: How Technology Is Shaping Every Global System Transition

    AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of key systems transition. AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at. Guests Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility What We Cover Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies Key Quotes "We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower "AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt "Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt References Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net Climate Collective: climatecollective.org Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy" Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems This Episode's Dance The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers. Next episode: The Food System Transition

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