TechnologySociety & Culture

Computer Says Maybe

Alix Dunn

Technology is changing fast. And it's changing our world even faster. Host Alix Dunn interviews visionaries, researchers, and technologists working in the public interest to help you keep up. Step outside the hype and explore the possibilities, problems, and politics of technology. Learn more at www.themaybe.org/podcast.

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#145
Friday · 54 min
Follow the AI Money: Big Tech’s Midterm Spending Spree w/ Steven Renderos
The AI industry is so unpopular that it has started paying for the support it can’t earn. So what does it take for people to turn that mistrust into power that the industry can’t just buy off? More like this: Flock Shock: How Local Fights Over Surveillance Are Reshaping American Politics w/ Sarah Hamid & Anthony Ralphs In this episode, Steven Renderos, Executive Director of MediaJustice, walks us through our current political climate as data centers become a kitchen table issue and AI PACs stealthily pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the midterms. Steven also argues that the biggest mistake we can make is accepting the inevitability argument, and shares how we can build something that holds up for the next fight and the fights to come. Further reading & resources: BroBots vs the People Campaign — MediaJustice The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South — MediaJustice Media Capture: Who Controls the Story Controls the Future — MediaJustice While the Left Sleeps — Phil Agre, Wired, Aug 1995 Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through community discussions, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout.
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#144
October 16 · 54 min
Flock Shock: How Local Fights Over Surveillance Are Reshaping American Politics w/ Sarah Hamid & Anthony Ralphs
You may have seen the viral clip of a man in a full Darth Vader costume protesting Flock at a San Diego City Council meeting. The man behind the mask was Anthony Ralphs, who spent months trying to get the city to reconsider its contract with the surveillance tech company. After repeatedly raising concerns with the council, he turned to political theater - and got national attention. His protest is part of a growing backlash against Flock, bringing people across the political spectrum together to challenge surveillance tech and demand more say in how it’s used. In this episode, Anthony reflects on what it took to get people to listen. Then, Sarah Hamid from the Electronic Frontier Foundation breaks down how Flock’s data-sharing works and explains a strategy gaining traction in communities looking to get this technology out of their cities: bringing lawmakers and community organizers together before contracts are signed. Together, they unpack how backlash against Flock is turning frustration with surveillance tech into renewed political engagement. Further reading and resources: The Man Behind the Anti-Flock Darth Vader Mask Wants to Know: 'When Will This End? — 404 Media Flock Taught Cops How to Surveil No Kings Protesters — 404 Media Street Level Surveillance: ALPRs** — Electronic Frontier Foundation EFF's Policy Position on ALPR Surveillance: Eliminate It and Reduce Its Harms — Electronic Frontier Foundation Cities terminate Flock contracts at record pace in August — Ars Technica Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology with a community of fellow co-conspirators. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#143
October 9 · 46 min
The Climate Cost of AI Prophecies: How Data Centers Fuel Big Fossil w/ Ketan Joshi
Tech companies keep telling us that the answer to solving climate change lies in AI. Meanwhile, the data centers required to power AI are keeping coal plants open longer, bringing in gas turbines, and driving plans for power stations bigger than anything we’ve built before. More like this: The Colossus Crossroads: Fighting for the Future of Memphis w/ KeShaun Pearson In this episode, Ketan Joshi, an independent climate analyst based in Oslo who tracks the climate impact of data centers and AI, explains how we got from facilities that drew the power of a suburb to facilities that consume as much electricity as Nigeria’s entire power grid. A former wind industry advocate, Ketan breaks down how a company can claim to run on 100% renewable energy while still driving up fossil fuel use, why Big Tech stopped talking about offsets and started promising that AI itself will solve the climate crisis, and what you find when you read the footnotes of their sustainability reports. He also argues that the real winners of the AI boom aren't even the tech companies... but fossil fuel companies like Chevron, who still come out ahead even if the bubble pops. Further reading & resources: Ketan Joshi’s Big Tech Annual Emissions + Energy Data Reports The AI Climate Hoax Report — Ketan Joshi The real energy use of agentic AI — Zeke Hausfather Microsoft and Chevron plan one of the largest gas-powered data center projects in US — TechCrunch, June 2026 Join The Maybe Collective for our first event: How to Resist AI in Schools: Learnings on Local Action with recent podcast guest, Ifeoma Ozoma on Thursday, October 15th 12-1pm ET for a participatory conversation about turning activation into action. This event is free to register HERE. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout.
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#142
October 2 · 44 min
Beware the AI Prophets: Hype, Doom, and Prediction as Tools of Control w/ Carissa Véliz
When a tech executive says AI will be doing your job next year, it sounds like a forecast. Dr. Carissa Véliz argues it's something else: a command, delivered in advance, that works only if enough of us obey it. If you believe the prediction, you buy the product, reorganize your company, and bet the economy on it, and the prediction comes true because you made it so. So who gets to make predictions that stick? And what would it take to stop treating them as news and start hearing them as orders? More like this: AGI is Scientifically Impossible w/ Adam Becker In this episode, Alix Dunn talks with Carissa Véliz, associate professor at Oxford's Institute for Ethics in AI and author of Prophecy: Prediction, Power, and the Fight for the Future, From Ancient Oracles to AI. Carissa explains why a prediction is a command disguised as a description, how powerful people use algorithms to fulfill their own forecasts, and why the alternative just might be being relying on preparation over prediction. Further reading & resources: Prophecy: Prediction, Power, and the Fight for the Future, From Ancient Oracles to AI — Carissa Véliz Beware the Power of Prediction — Carissa Véliz, TED Talk The Origins of Totalitarianism — Hannah Arendt The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” — Émile P. Torres, Current Affairs Join The Maybe Collective to unpack this month's series on AI, elections, and who gets to shape the future with us. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#141
September 25 · 52 min
The Kids Are Online: Are Social Media Bans the Answer? w/ Cori Crider and Pamela Wisniewski
Almost everyone studying kids’ safety online agrees that a blanket social media ban won't work. And nearly every government moving on the issue is passing one anyway. This week, a researcher and a policy lawyer dig into why - and what could actually work instead. More like this: When Kids Can’t Consent: The Case Against Tech in the Classroom w/ Andrew Liddell This is the final episode in our back-to-school series on tech and kids. Pamela Wisniewski, a principal research scientist at the International Computer Science Institute, spends the first half of the conversation dismantling the myths that are driving most kids-online safety policies: that teens are victims with no agency, that we're all "addicted" in the same way, and that “bad kids” are seeking risk rather than connection. Her research suggests that safety isn't the absence of risk; it's having the agency and support to navigate it. She also explains why age verification often strips that agency from kids and parents alike, without making anyone safer. Cory Crider, executive director of the Future of Tech Institute, picks up where Pam leaves off. She walks us through Europe's Kids Act, the political pressure that is pushing Brussels to act, and why she'd rather fix toxic feed design than wall kids off from platforms that remain exactly the same underneath. She also gets into how easily an age-check system built for social media could creep into every corner of the internet if nobody's watching. Further reading & resources: Promoting Adolescent Online Safety and Privacy through Human-Centered Computing [VIDEO] — Pam Wisniewski, University of Waterloo CrySP Speaker Series on Privacy EU KIDS Act to restrict social media platforms’ access to children in the EU — European Commission What is in the EU's planned KIDS Act? — Reuters Protection of persons under 18: Seven out of ten children, aged between 10 and 14, think that setting the digital age of majority at 15 is a good idea — Arcom Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#140
September 18 · 49 min
When Kids Can’t Consent: The Case Against Tech in the Classroom w/ Andrew Liddell
No tech that your kid uses in the classroom was designed for their benefit. Not the tablet, not the "learning app," not the AI chatbot helping with homework. It was designed to benefit the company that made it — and your kid's data, attention, privacy, and, most importantly, safety, are the price. More like this: Meet the Mom Winning Against AI in Schools w/ Ifeoma Ozoma This week, Andrew Liddell, co-founder of the EdTech Law Center, walks us through exactly how EdTech works, why it made its way into schools with so little oversight, who it actually serves, and the cases his firm has fought against the companies putting these devices into classrooms. His firm has gone after student-data pipelines it flagged as hackable — and later watched get hacked — laws like FERPA and COPPA being twisted into loopholes that bypass parental consent entirely, and school-issued AI tools pulling kids into the same crises we’ve watched play out among adults. What ties it together, Liddell says, is a business model that was never built with kids in mind, and a legal system that’s still trying to catch up. Andrew’s looking for parents in California who are concerned about their kids’ usage of AI chatbots. If that’s you, get in touch here: https://chatgptlitigation.com/ Further reading & resources: EdTech Law Center Parents’ Consent at the Heart of Ed Tech Lawsuits — The 74 Google's work in schools aims to create a 'pipeline of future users,' internal documents say — NBC News Children's Screen Time Action Network Mothers Against Media Addiction Phone Free Schools Movement Fair Play Schools Beyond Screens Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#139
September 15 · 56 min
The Battle for Power Inside Big Tech: Against Tech Oligarchy w/ JS Tan & Clarissa Redwine
Over the last decade, tech workers have staged walkouts, signed open letters by the tens of thousands, and built more than a dozen new unions across the industry. And yet, over that same decade, tech companies have ramped up carbon emissions, raced to militarize AI, signed contracts with the Trump administration, rolled back protections for marginalized users, and, in some ways, engineered their platforms to be protest-proof. In Against Tech Oligarchy, authors JS Tan and Clarissa Redwine ask the question: did tech workers ever actually learn how to fight? More like this: Meet the Mom Winning Against AI in Schools w/ Ifeoma Ozoma JS Tan and Clarissa Redwine are both former tech workers who spent years organizing from the inside. This week, they join Alix to map the last decade of tech labor organizing: the walkout era of 2018, when public pressure and shame campaigns actually worked; the pivot toward formal unionization after Kickstarter's breakthrough; and the sharp turn after 2022, when rising interest rates gave bosses cover to stop pretending they cared what workers thought. They get into why revenue-based leverage barely applies to an industry that runs on perceived valuation, why AI researchers and rank-and-file engineers may need very different organizing strategies, and the line that anchors the whole conversation: you can spend years organizing for power, and the moment you actually have it, realize you have no idea how to use it. Further reading & resources: Buy the book: Against Tech Oligarchy — JS Tan & Clarissa Redwine How a Tech Worker Fought Back from Being Fired as a Union Organiser — Clarissa Redwine, Branch Why the Balance of Power in Tech is Shifting Towards Workers — Jane Lytvynenko, MIT Technology Review Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#138
September 11 · 53 min
Meet the Mom Winning Against AI in Schools w/ Ifeoma Ozoma
Imagine dropping your kid off at school, assuming they’ll spend the day being taught by… teachers, of course. But then you find out that part of their day is actually spent talking and reading out loud to a cute, cartoonish AI avatar named Amira. And while they’re reading, Amira is recording their voice, without ever receiving consent from the parent or child. In New Mexico, this very technology is being mandated in classrooms across the state. But when one parent, with a reputation for speaking out and getting laws changed, discovered what was happening, she was ready to fight for the kids in her school district and beyond. More like this: https://www.themaybe.org/podcast/the-digital-delusion-w-dr-jared-cooney-horvath That parent is Ifeoma Ozoma. After Pinterest pushed her out for raising concerns about pay discrimination and health misinformation, she moved to Santa Fe, where a new fight found her. We get into how one mom with a DIY website got fifteen school districts to opt out in six weeks flat, what digging into public records revealed about how deep this actually goes, and how she’s working to get the whole thing banned outright. Further reading & resources: Amira Opt-Out SFPS Schools Beyond Screens New York City Bans A.I. in Elementary and Middle Schools — The New York Times Get unvetted AI out of New Mexico schools — Ifeoma Ozoma Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout.
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#137
September 4 · 42 min
The Digital Delusion: The False Promise of Ed Tech w/ Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath
A screen is built to do one thing well: split your attention across as many things as possible, as fast as possible. A developing brain needs the opposite— sustained, undivided focus— to learn anything at all. Cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath doesn't think ed-tech is failing kids by accident. He thinks it's failing them because the two things it's built to do are the same two things guaranteed to keep them from learning. More like this: You Seem Lonely. Have a Robot w/ Stevie Chancellor In this episode, Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath, a former classroom teacher turned cognitive neuroscientist and author of the new book The Digital Delusion, walks Alix through why so much of what makes a screen effective is exactly what makes it useless for learning: it invites multitasking when the brain needs focus, it rewards speed when comprehension requires slowing down, and it replaces face-to-face attention with something that looks like connection but doesn't function like it. Dr. Horvath takes us back over a deacde ago to trace how we got here, where a tool to fail students by design continues to become more embedded into the classroom. Further reading & resources: Technopoly: The Surrender of Culture to Technology — Neil Postman The Pen Is Mightier Than the Keyboard — Mueller & Oppenheimer, Psychological Science, April 2014 This laptop had to fail so Chromebooks could become back-to-school essentials — Tech Radar, August 2022 Chromebook Remorse: Tech Backlash at Schools Extends Beyond Phones — The New York Times, May 2026 Buy The Digital Delusion: How Classroom Technology Harms Our Kids' Learning by Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath through The Maybe on Bookshop.org! Every purchases supports the author and independent bookstores across the country. Want to join the authors we interview for exclusive Q&As? Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#136
August 28 · 54 min
Meet the Guy (Actually) Passing Tech Laws
You've likely heard of the National Sexual Assault Hotline. What you might not know is that it's operated by RAINN, an organization that has become one of the more unlikely players in tech policy. Since the pandemic, RAINN has seen a sharp rise in calls from young people. As more time is spent online, more opportunities for online sexual abuse follow. More like this: How Anduril Tried to Kill Democracy in Ohio (& How Farmers Fought Back) Stefan Turkheimer, RAINN’s VP of Public Policy, joins Alix to talk about how the crisis line led him to fight the ways tech platforms enable abuse at scale. Nearly 500,000 people contact RAINN's hotline every year, and a majority now call about tech-enabled assault: deepfakes, non-consensual intimate images, and coerced CSAM. RAINN didn't set out to become a tech accountability organization. But Stefan didn't just want to treat the symptoms. He wanted to change the root of the problem. From a Facebook algorithm connecting predators to kids, to a bill Elon Musk killed and Melania Trump revived, to the current fight over Grok generating nudes, Alix and Stefan map the wins, the losses, and the laws still standing in the way of real accountability. This conversation lands the same week Meta agreed to pay $18 billion to settle claims from dozens of states that it knowingly designed Instagram and Facebook to addict kids. While it comes with tangible changes, daily time limits, nighttime blocks, age checks, it's also a clear example of what Stefan and Alix discuss in this episode. This settlement, and the safety standards that come with it, were hammered out behind closed doors with no public weigh in. Why is that still how we decide what safety looks like for millions of kids? Content note: this episode discusses sexual assault, child sexual abuse, and non-consensual offenses. Further reading & resources: Kids law needed beyond Meta settlement, backers say — Roll Call The Take It Down Act is in full effect. What is it and how do you use it? — The 19th Grok chatbot allowed users to create digitally altered photos of minors in "minimal clothing" — CBS News To learn more, support, or get support about the National Sexual Assault Hotline, visit RAINN.org. Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#135
August 21 · 51 min
How Anduril Tried to Kill Democracy in Ohio (& How Farmers Fought Back)
In Madison Township, Ohio, families have farmed the same land for generations. Then a commercial real estate company started buying up their neighbors' fields under the code name "Project Thor." They wouldn't find out until later that the buyer was Anduril, a venture-backed weapons company chasing a slice of the trillion-dollar Pentagon budget. Now, those farming families’ cattle and cornfields are being bulldozed to make way for a drone and cruise missile factory. More like this: The Colossus Crossroads: Fighting for the Future of Memphis w/ KeShaun Pearson In this episode, Taylor Barnes, a field reporter with Inkstick Media, takes us to Madison Township, where a fight over zoning has become a fight over who actually gets a say: communities that have a vote, or corporations that have a check. She walks us through the nearly billion dollars in tax breaks Anduril is set to receive, the lobbyist-drafted state law that stripped residents of their right to vote on the project, and what happens when the people with the least power over a decision are the ones who have to live with it. Further reading & resources: In Ohio, Who Really Gets a Say in Anduril Weapons Factories? — Taylor Barnes, Inkstick Media How an Anduril Lobbyist Quashed Local Voting Rights on Ohio — Taylor Barnes Emails Show Defense Tech Lobbyist Targets Local Voters — Inkstick Media This fight isn't over. The farmers leading it are up against Anduril's legal team, largely on their own. If you're a lawyer - especially with experience in zoning or local democratic rights - and want to help, get in touch. We'll make the introduction. Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#134
July 31 · 2 min
A Sneak Peek into The Maybe Collective
We’re taking a short summer break and will be back on your feed in a couple of weeks. But we've got news before we go. Catch up on our most recent series: Computer Says Kill & REAL Resistance We're cooking up something new: a pilot membership community, launching this fall. Alix shares a little sneak peek at what we're building, and why we think its time to create a place where people can go deeper, find co-conspirators, and figure out what to do next. It's still early, and because we’re building this for you, we want to make sure it’s shaped by you. We want to hear from you: What would make a community like this worth showing up for? What kinds of conversations, connections, or activities would you want to be part of? What should we be thinking about as we build this? We’d love your thoughts in a quick survey here. You can also send us a note directly to pod@themaybe.org. Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#133
July 24 · 31 min
The Colossus Crossroads: Fighting for the Future of Memphis w/ KeShaun Pearson
In Memphis, companies don't come in to invest in the city. They come in to extract from its people and its land, no matter how high the human cost. That's exactly what xAI did when they decided to build one of the largest data centers in South Memphis, regardless of what it meant for the wellbeing of the people already living there. More like this: The Collective Fight for Our Humanity - REAL Resistance In this episode, KeShaun Pearson, Executive Director of Memphis Community Against Pollution (MCAP), connects this fight to a much longer history of disinvestment and oppression in South Memphis— one that existed long before xAI showed up and shaped what it actually means to become a "sacrifice zone." But KeShaun also knows that when you're fighting to take something down, you have to build something better in its place. He shares his vision for what co-governance could look like between communities, cities, and corporations, and what it would take for a company that says it's here to give something back to actually mean it. Further reading & resources: Livestream w/ Alix Dunn: The Battle for Memphis Elon Musk’s Memphis AI empire is the epicenter of the data center backlash — CNBC xAI built an illegal power plant to power its data center — Southern Environmental Law Center xAI in Memphis — What you need to know — Memphis Community Against Pollution Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#132
July 17 · 48 min
The Gig is Up: How Uber Ruined Wage Labor with Veena Dubal
In 2013, taxi drivers were beginning to notice something unusual: unmarked, black cars were cutting them off in taxi lines and picking up their passengers. Little did these drivers know that those black cars were the start of Uber — and it wasn’t just going to destroy the taxi industry, but wage labor as we knew it. More like this: REAL Resistance — Against Automated Governments In this episode, Alix Dunn sits down with Veena Dubal, one of the leading experts on gig labor and Professor of Law at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. Veena shares with us her firsthand account of the Uberization of everything from the beginning to now. She breaks down how this seemingly-innocuous ride sharing app would lead to algorithmic wage fixing around the world and the gamblification of workers’ lives. Further reading & resources: On Algorithmic Wage Discrimination — Veena Dubal AI Shouldn’t Be Setting Prices or Wages. States Need to Push Back. — Veena Dubal, 2026 How artificial intelligence uncouples hard work from fair wages through ‘surveillance pay’ practices—and how to fix it — Veena Dubal, Wilneida Negrón Algorithms of Exploitation — Human Rights Watch Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#131
July 10 · 50 min
The Collective Fight for Our Humanity - REAL Resistance
Anna Bacciarelli and Shazeda Ahmed know more than anyone that there are only a handful of tech companies asserting dominance around the world by talking in high-level abstractions about what the future looks like. At REAL ML, they want to change that. More like this: REAL Resistance: Who's Behind Big Brother? This is REAL Resistance, a collection of conversations produced in collaboration with Real ML, featuring the experts and advocates who make up Real ML’s global network. In this final conversation, Real ML executive director Anna Bacciarelli and researcher Shazeda Ahmed discuss what it takes to knit together a global community that is working to resist the material harms of big tech: the powers that be want to keep any discussion about the future of AI as vague as possible — which is why the experts that attend Real ML workshops take the time to get specific about the issues. Further reading & resources: More about Real ML Field-building and the epistemic culture of AI safety by Shazeda Ahmed et al A 2024 profile on Frantz Fanon — The Guardian Computer-vision research powers surveillance technology, by Abeba Birhane, Ria Kalluri, et al — Nature Magazine June 2025 **Subscribe to our newsletter to get more stuff than just a podcast — we run events and do other work that you will definitely be interested in!** Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#130
July 7 · 45 min
Who's Behind Big Brother? - REAL Resistance
Mariel Garcia-Montes and Crofton Black share their stories and investigations that uncover the backdoor deals that allow the surveillance industry to thrive under the guise of ‘security’. If you have nothing to hide, you won’t mind if we spy, right? More like this: REAL Resistance: The Global Fight Against Technocolonialism This is REAL Resistance, a collection of conversations produced in collaboration with Real ML, featuring the experts and advocates who make up Real ML’s global network. In this conversation, two guests from the network take us on a guided tour of the global underground surveillance tech market: Mexico is the world’s biggest importer of surveillance tech, and has a rich history of spying on citizens. Mariel Garcia-Montes briefs us on that history and what it means for Mexico now Surveillance technology represents a global industry that is mediated by exclusive conferences and backdoor deals; Crofton Black has spent years investigating this industry, the players, and the vulnerabilities they exploit Further reading & resources: More about Mariel’s work Surveillance Secrets — Lighthouse Reports, 2025 Ghost in the Network — Lighthouse Reports, 2023 More on the Mexican Student Movement of 1968 — Eugenia Allier-Montano, 2022 The Tierra Común Network, which Mariel invites any scholars and practitioners to join Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#129
July 3 · 49 min
The Global Fight Against Technocolonialism - REAL Resistance
Paola Ricaurte Quijano, Fernanda Rodrigues, Angela Chukunzira, and Kauna Love Malgwi make it clear that colonial powers have never gone away. The people and technology powering them have just changed, and one of them is AI… More Like This: REAL Resistance: Against Automated Governments This is REAL Resistance, a collection of conversations produced in collaboration with Real ML, featuring the experts and advocates who make up Real ML’s global network. In this conversation, four guests from the network discuss how the business of AI continues legacies of colonialism in Brazil, Mexico, and Kenya: AI companies are taking land in Querétaro for data center expansion, and they’re doing it without asking first. Paola Ricaurte Quijano explains that these are the mechanisms of dispossession at play — and it’s nothing new. The government in Brazil are adopting a risk-based approach for AI regulation; Fernanda Rodrigues demonstrates the problems with this approach, and how they disproportionately harm Black people. African data workers suffer the worst mental health harms when compared to other localities. Angela Chukunzira and Kauna Love Malgwi have worked to build a resistance movement for oppressed workers, and a framework for decolonising mental health. Further reading & resources: A Mental Health Intervention for Data Workers — Kauna Ibrahim Malgwi "It's not drought, it's plunder" Querétaro, the valley of data centers — By Paola Ricaurte Quijano and Teresa Roldán Soria, July 2025 Facial recognition surveillance in São Paulo could worsen racism — Al Jazeera, 2023 The Feminist AI Research Network More about the African Content Moderators Union Iris — The Institute for Research on Internet and Society Siasa Place — a youth organisation that helped tech workers who had been dismissed **Subscribe to our newsletter to get more stuff than just a podcast — we run events and do other work that you will definitely be interested in!** Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#128
June 30 · 53 min
Against Automated Governments - REAL Resistance
Maria Pilar Llorens, Divij Joshi, Gabriel Geiger, and Purity Mukami reveal how digitised welfare is not welfare — it’s just efficiency theatre. More like this: REAL Resistance: The AI Information Warp This is REAL Resistance, a collection of conversations produced in collaboration with Real ML, featuring the experts and advocates who make up Real ML’s global network. In this conversation, three guests from the network explore the rapid digitisation of public and judicial services around the world: Courts in LatAm countries are using ChatGPT to power through the case backlog. Maria Pilar Llorens explains that speed is not a virtue in judicial settings Kenya has adopted algorithmic proxy means-testing for healthcare — Gabriel Geiger & Purity Mukami reverse-engineered it to reveal its inequities Digitised public services kind of have a formula now: Divij Joshi’s work takes an aerial view of digitised payments, IDs, and consolidated data sets that govern the efficiency playbook Further reading & resources: Artificial Intelligence and Human Rights Courts — Maria Pilar Llorens Hiding Behind AI — Gabriel & Purity’s report on the new Kenyan healthcare system Suspicion Machines — Gabriel Geiger et al, Lighthouse Reports March 2023 How an algorithm denied food to thousands of poor in India’s Telangana — Divij Joshi, Tapasya, Kumar Sambhav, Al Jazeera January 2024 AI governance in India – law, policy and political economy — Divij Joshi, 2024 Use of Entity Resolution in India: Shining a light on how new forms of automation can deny people access to welfare — Amnesty International 2024 Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#127
June 26 · 49 min
The AI Information Warp - REAL Resistance
Klaudia Jaźwińska, Aliya Bhatia, and Yanick Kemayou come together to answer: What happens when a small collection of AI companies start colonising the truth? More like this: The Toxic Relationship Between AI & Journalism w/ Nic Dawes This is REAL Resistance, a collection of conversations produced in collaboration with Real ML, featuring the experts and advocates who make up Real ML’s global network. In this conversation, three guests from the network share all the ways in which AI is shaping our relationship with news, language, and learning: People are increasingly using AI for search and to get their news; but Klaudia Jaźwińska’s research finds that chatbots have a huge citation problem Many LLMs claim to be ‘multi-lingual’ — but also only tested in US English? Aliya Bhatia explains that porting outputs from English into all other languages in not gonna cut it Higher education in Africa is completely disconnected from local knowledge, which is why Yanick Kemayou founded Kabakoo: an alternative learning platform that leverages and preserves local knowledge with the use of technology, and without exploitation As Yancik says in this episode, “openness without governance is extraction with extra steps”. Further reading & resources: AI Search has a Citation Problem — Klaudia Jaźwińska & Aisvarya Chandrasekar Lost in Translation: Large Language Models in Non-English Content Analysis — Gabriel Nicholas, Aliya Bhatia More on Kabakoo Academies, founded by Yanick Kemayou The SPUR Coalition — a UK org seeking to create standards and infrastructure for AI companies and news publishers to do business The State and Fate of Linguistic Diversity and Inclusion in the NLP World — by Pratik Joshi et al, 2020 The #BenderRule: On Naming the Languages We Study and Why It Matters — Emily Bender, 2019 The silicon gaze: A typology of biases and inequality in LLMs through the lens of place — Francisco W. Kerche et al, 2026 Bamako AI Festival Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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#126
June 19 · 51 min
Computer Says Kill: How To Say No w/ Matt Mahmoudi and Marwa Fatafta
How do we stand up against the human rights violations that exist in the gruesome relationship between the business of AI and war? More like this: Computer Says Kill: The AI Safety Circus w/ Heidy Khlaaf In our final installment of Computer Says Kill, Matt Mahmoudi returns, this time with Marwa Fatafta, to share the why and how of their recent joint statement on AI in warfare. The calls on AI companies to stop selling their products for use in military contexts, and for governments to cease buying them. The asks are simple while the execution is complex: what is the historical context of this fight and how long will it take to achieve some level of justice? Further reading & resources: Read the joint statement on Access Now and share across your networks Microsoft: it’s time to come clean about your ties to the Israeli military — Access Now A million calls an hour’: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians — The Guardian, 2025 AI for War: Big Tech Empowering Israel’s Crimes and Occupation — Al Shabaka, 2025 On Violence by Hanna Arendt Anthropic announces 'Claude Corps' to teach nonprofits to use AI more effectively — The Independent, June 2026 Artificial Genocidal Intelligence: how Israel is automating human rights abuses and war crimes — Access Now, 2024 Join The Maybe Collective to explore the politics of technology through fresh ideas that you won't hear anywhere else. Sign up for monthly insights, access to exclusive digital events, and real ways to get more involved on issues you care about. Computer Says Maybe is produced by Georgia Iacovou, Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, Sarah Myles, Van Newman, and Zoe Trout
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