Both Lives Podcast

S2E9 - Shaped by the experience of forced adoption: A conversation with Pam Birtle

This week, Dawn is joined by Pam Birtle to discuss pregnancy crisis and adoption. Pam shares her story of giving birth to her son the day before her fifteenth birthday, the impact of their separation through forced adoption, and their reunion 32 years later. In 1999, she and her husband, Trevor, established Cornerstone. It is currently the only Ofsted-inspected practicing Christian fostering agency where everybody (staff, volunteers, foster carers and adopters) have a living and active faith. In 2016, Pam also founded Parents and Children Together Northeast, a charity providing practical and emotional support to vulnerable families at risk of breakdown. Dawn and Lisa also respond to listeners' comments, discuss recent news stories, and reflect on season two. Cornerstone: https://www.cornerstoneuk.org/ Parents and Children Together Northeast: https://www.pactne.co.uk/ UK Government apologises for historic forced adoption practices: www.gov.uk/government/news/government-apologises-for-historic-forced-adoption-practices Church of England apologises for role in post-war historical adoption practices: https://www.churchofengland.org/about/libraries-and-archives/family-history/church-england-apologises-role-post-war-historical-adoption-practices The Truth Recovery Independent Panel final report: https://www.independentpanel.truthrecoveryni.co.uk/ Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: www.bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S2E8 - Why is motherhood unappealing to so many young women today? A conversation with Anna Iliescu

This week, Dawn and Lisa are joined by former Evangelical Alliance associate, Anna Iliescu to discuss her article, ‘Why is motherhood unappealing to so many young women today?’ Together they explore why so many women feel fearful or unqualified for motherhood and reflect on how the church can tell a better story for both lives in pregnancy and motherhood, pre and post birth. Dawn and Lisa also discuss the newly launched Baby Loss Certificate Scheme in Northern Ireland, Lisa’s current experience of antenatal care for her and Baby Barr and how a recent news story from the world cup sparked global conversations around the role of fathers. They also consider why a photograph of female rugby players breastfeeding their babies generated widespread discussion online. Read Anna’s article: www.eauk.org/news-and-views/why-is-motherhood-unappealing-to-so-many-young-women-today Baby Loss Certificate Scheme for Northern Ireland: https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/baby-loss-certificate-scheme-northern-ireland Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: www.bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S2E7 - Adoption and fatherhood: A conversation with Brian Harvey

This week, Dawn is joined by Brian Harvey, a businessman from Northern Ireland. Brian shares his adoption story and together they explore the crucial role that fathers can play in supporting both lives in pregnancy, pre and post birth. Also in this episode, Dawn and Lisa discuss the just released Scotland abortion statistics for 2025. They then reflect on a listener comment and a recent conversation with someone who encountered the phrase ‘both lives matter’ for the first time. Lost boys report: https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/CSJ-The_Lost_Boys.pdf Scotland abortion statistics 2025: https://publichealthscotland.scot/publications/termination-of-pregnancy-statistics/termination-of-pregnancy-statistics-year-ending-december-2025/ God Unborn – Joseph said yes: https://www.eauk.org/what-we-do/initiatives/both-lives/god-unborn/god-unborn-joseph-said-yes Faith and fatherhood in my blended family: https://www.eauk.org/news-and-views/faith-and-fatherhood-in-my-blended-family Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: www.bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S2E6 - South Africa’s baby abandonment crisis: A conversation with Aoife Kelly de Klerk

This week, Dawn is joined by Aoife Kelly de Klerk. Originally from Tipperary, Ireland, Aoife began her career as an Occupational Therapist. In 2019, she founded Tevah Moshe in response to the baby abandonment crisis in South Africa. Aoife’s husband Leon shared that during his time studying to become a civil engineer, he visited a water treatment facility and was confronted by the reality that one of the largest contributors to drain blockages are discarded foetuses. It is estimated that 3500 babies are found abandoned across South Africa each year, and for every one baby found alive two are found dead. After 14 years in South Africa, Aoife returned to Ireland for 3 years. She is now a working artist exploring faith, empathy, and belonging and currently resides in Toronto, Canada. Aoife’s website: https://kellydeklerk.com/content Tevah Moshe: https://tevahmoshe.com/ Article: Is abandoning a baby in a safe box a crime or an act of love? Court to decide: https://groundup.org.za/article/is-abandoning-a-baby-in-a-safe-box-a-crime-or-an-act-of-love-pretoria-high-court-to-decide/ Dawn and Lisa also discuss comments from listeners, highlight a new website initiative from the US Government and celebrate a good news story of a baby girl who was born after her mother engaged with abortion pill reversal treatment. https://www.moms.gov/ Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: www.bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

• Chapters

S2E5 – Pregnancy crises: Is adoption an option? A conversation with Sue Lucas

This week, Dawn is joined by Sue Lucas, a retired Early Years teacher and advisor from Somerset. Sue and her husband adopted both of their daughters as babies and are now proud grandparents. In the 1990s, Sue co-founded the charity ASIST with a group of adopters, driven by a vision that any woman, wherever she lived, could easily access information about baby adoption as a positive and informed choice in the face of an unplanned or crisis pregnancy. The charity went on to work with pregnancy counselling centres, run a helpline and website, and engage with local and national government across political parties. Also in this episode, Dawn and Lisa reflect on an encouraging listener comment, dive into a lively social media discussion, and share highlights from a busy week of events, revealing a growing desire across the UK for people to be equipped to speak up for both lives in pregnancy. Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk

S2E4 - Healthcare for both lives: A conversation with two of the doctors involved

This week, Dawn is joined by Dr Melody Redman and Dr Grace Petkovic to discuss Healthcare for Both Lives, a new initiative founded by healthcare professionals responding to a lack of support and representation for those committed to caring for both pregnant women and their pre-born children. They explore why the group was established and how it promotes compassionate, evidence-based care, supports like-minded professionals, and contributes to both public and professional conversations on these important issues. Find out more: https://www.healthcareforbothlives.org/ Dawn and Lisa also discuss conflicting media narratives and reflect on how a recent university speaking engagement revealed a generation ready and willing to say that both lives matter. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk

S2E3 – From pro-choice to pro-both: A conversation with Alicia Edmund

Alicia Edmund, head of public policy at the Evangelical Alliance, joins Dawn to share how she went from identifying as pro-choice during her late teens and early 20s to embracing a pro-both perspective through faith and discipleship. They also discuss bringing Christian conviction into political advocacy and lament the recent House of Lords vote on decriminalising abortion, and what it looks like for the church to lead the way in valuing both lives in pregnancy. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

Bonus episode: God Unborn – Nine months between the angel and the manger

When God the Son became flesh, He developed in the womb and was born of a woman, like all babies are. Joining us in the fullness of our humanity from that point was intentional, so it must matter. Yet we don’t tend to think about those nine months before Jesus’ birth. With this God Unborn series, we are led to think about the circumstances and the people at the point at which the Word became flesh, and ask God to reveal to us what He planned that we’ve forgotten, or perhaps never noticed. Find out more and access the Lectio Divina devotional resources: www.eauk.org/what-we-do/initiatives/both-lives/god-unborn Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S2E2 – How abortion law changed the culture of medicine – A conversation with Professor John Wyatt

John Wyatt is an Emeritus Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics, Ethics & Perinatology at University College London and a senior researcher at the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion. A former consultant neonatologist, he spent over 25 years caring for critically ill newborns and researching the causes, treatment, and prevention of brain injury in infants. His clinical experience led to a deep interest in the ethical challenges surrounding the beginning and end of life. Now retired from frontline medicine, he focuses on the philosophical, ethical, and theological implications of advances in medical technology, artificial intelligence, and robotics, particularly in relation to the Christian faith. Find out more about Professor Wyatt’s work: www.johnwyatt.com/ Matters of Life and Death Podcast: www.johnwyatt.com/podcast/ In this episode, Dawn and John Wyatt explore the origins of neonatology and reflect on how abortion law has shaped the culture of modern medicine. Dawn and Lisa also discuss the recent landmark vote in the House of Lords on abortion decriminalisation, consider comments made by Zara Larsson, and examine how the cultural conversation has shifted from celebrating access to abortion to celebrating the act of abortion. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S2E1 - Is silent prayer a crime? – A conversation with Isabel Vaughan-Spruce

This week, Dawn is joined by Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, Co-Director of March for Life UK and Campaign Director for 40 Days for Life Birmingham. Together they explore Isabel's work, her story, and what motivates her involvement in both national pro-both advocacy and local prayer vigils. March for Life: www.marchforlife.co.uk/ 40 Days for Life: www.40daysforlife.com/en/ Let’s continue the conversation — send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @bothlivesuk

Season two - Teaser episode

Welcome to Season two of the Both Lives Podcast! We love to hear from you - get in touch by emailing us at stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S1E12 - Advent - A season of reflection and hope

In this episode, Dawn and Lisa reflect on the insights shared by our expert guests, answer listeners' questions and explore what it means to view the Advent season through a pro-both lens. The Both Lives Podcast will return in February 2026. God Unborn Advent devotional 2025: www.eauk.org/what-we-do/initiatives/both-lives/god-unborn/god-unborn-advent-2025 Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S1E11 - Carrying Hope - A conversation with author Beth Appleby

This week, Dawn is joined by the author of Carrying Hope: Expecting Death, Delivering Life, Beth Appleby. Together they’ll explore Beth’s heartfelt and deeply vulnerable story of a pregnancy destined to end in death by the medical world but fore which God has other plans. Buy Carrying Hope: Expecting Death, Delivering Life or contact Beth at: carryinghope.co.uk Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E10 - The trajectory of abortion law in the UK: A conversation with legal scholar Dr Mary Neal

This week, Dawn is joined by legal scholar, Dr Mary Neal, whose work focuses on healthcare law and ethics and legal theory. Together they explore the jurisprudence of pregnancy and the trajectory of abortion law in the UK. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Access the One Hundred Thousand Report here. Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E9 - Post-Roe America: A conversation with Elizabeth Graham, CEO of Life Collective and Stand for Life

This week, we’re turning our attention to the USA as Dawn is joined by Elizabeth Graham, CEO of Life Collective and Stand for Life. Together they explore, the current cultural landscape when it comes to abortion in America, the impact of Roe v Wade being overturned, and the need for and ways in which churches and communities are stepping up to support women, families, and babies – pre and post birth. Stand for Life: standforlife.com/ Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E8 - Engaging in the culture war - A conversation with the Belfast Bigot

This week, Dawn is joined by cultural commentator, The Belfast Bigot. Together they explore the truth of what abortion really is, the cultural climate surrounding it, and why The Belfast Bigot chooses to keep his identity private. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E7 - A compassionate response to pregnancy crisis, loss and abortion: A conversation with Sophie Guthrie-Kummer, Chief Executive at Choices

This week, Dawn is joined by Sophie Guthrie-Kummer, Chief Executive at Choices, a charity committed to offering compassionate, confidential support to women navigating the complex realities of pregnancy, loss, and parenthood. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E6 - Standing for both lives in Parliament - A conversation with Carla Lockhart MP

This week, Dawn is joined by Carla Lockhart MP. Together they explore the challenges of balancing motherhood with a demanding political career and talk about what it’s really like to stand up for both lives in pregnancy in the House of Commons. To find out how your local MP has voted on issues surrounding pregnancy and abortion check out: theyworkforyou.com How to connect with your local representative on this vital issue: www.eauk.org/what-we-do/advocacy/connect-resource Further reading: What the decriminalisation of abortion really means in practice: https://www.eauk.org/news-and-views/what-the-decriminalisation-of-abortion-really-means-in-practice Parliament votes to legalise unsafe and dangerous abortion: https://www.eauk.org/news-and-views/parliament-votes-to-legalise-unsafe-and-dangerous-abortion Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.

S1E5 - Why churches should talk about pregnancy crises and abortion - A conversation with Damilola Makinde

This week Dawn is joined by Damilola Makinde, (Evangelical Alliance advocacy engagement lead) Together, Dawn and Damilola explore why and how churches should speak of and respond to pregnancy crisis and abortion, God’s creation design, His heart for His image bearers and what it means to be a woman. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK

S1E4 - Fear of pregnancy and baby loss - A conversation with Stefanie, a mental health midwife

On this week’s episode, Dawn sits down with Stefanie, a midwife specialising in trauma and loss. Together, they explore what it truly means to walk alongside women and families through some of life’s most complex and heart-wrenching circumstances. They discuss the gaps that still exist in care for women and unborn babies, and share insights on how those providing this essential support can look after their clients and themselves. Let’s continue the conversation, send your questions and comments to stand@bothlives.co.uk Find out more about the work of Both Lives and sign up to our free monthly newsletter: bothlives.co.uk Follow us on social media: Facebook & X: @BothLives Instagram: @BothLivesUK If you or someone you know has been impacted by anything discussed in this episode, you can access support and resources via the services directory listed on our website.