ArtsBooksDesign

BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS

looking at secrets to understand why we are the way we are.

Each week, we invite thought leaders and experts in the fields of art, design and self-help, to talk about their areas of expertise, share a secret and share what is exciting for them.

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Monday · 35 min
No One Taught Me How to Say the Hard Thing (Without Drama)
ONE QUICK ANNOUNCEMENT: WE ARE A TOP PODCAST on SUBSTACK!! Thanks to you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for letting me do this because I love it. It is such a freaking joy. OK, so: I got into the business of making the things I need back in 2012. I started People I’ve Loved basically to help myself, to make things that would connect me to others in ways that made me feel like I belonged. Fast forward to now, and this project is a dream come true. Let’s Talk About It: Prompts for the Conversations We Long to Have is a deck I made with the otherworldly wonderful Dr. Jessica Zucker, psychologist and author of I Had a Miscarriage and Normalize It. It does exactly what it says it will: it gives us a structure for talking about the hard things with love and compassion. SPOILER ALERT - YOU DON’T need to buy the deck. You just need to use this email in your inbox as inspiration to talk about whatever you are mulling over. Share this with someone you want to be open with. As an invitation. I don’t know about you, but no one ever taught me how to have complex conversations about life’s stages: illness, loss, kids growing up and leaving, the friendships that hold us together. Bringing them up is so hard. We wait for the perfect moment. We worry about the other person’s feelings before our own. And the moment never comes. That’s exactly why this deck exists. You don’t have to find the words or the opening line. You just pull a card. And because it ends in gratitude, you walk away from the hard stuff feeling relief and closeness, not just exhaustion. Think of the conversation Jessica and I recorded as an invitation to see how it works. We walk through the deck’s three parts: * Affirmations to steady yourself first. We each shared the mantras we lean on before saying anything to anyone else. * Questions that open the door. Jessica shared that five years after her breast cancer diagnosis, she still wishes people would ask how she’s doing. * Gratitude to close. It’s the part that turns a hard conversation into a closer one. What’s the conversation you’ve been longing to have? I will have it with you here. If you want. My favorite part in this episode is Jessica shares what she is telling herself to feel better in this moment. And it is SO GOOD. I share mine too. Sending love and okness to everyone out there. Love, Carissa PS Bad at Keeping Secrets is something I do for fun, it is such a blessing to be able to share work that I wholeheartedly believe in. The podcast is edited by Mark McDonald, Music by my sister Officially Quigley and made possible by People I’ve Loved (in the sense that we pay for it). PPS We are almost sold out of the deck with Dr. Jessica Zucker but I had to post this anyway just in case you needed permission to have a good sit down with someone you love. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is so delighted to have this conversation with you. Please like and subscribe - it helps us keep going. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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October 5 · 56 min
Should I Say Something?
I've recently realized I don't like groups. Not because I don't like people. It's just that being in groups sends my social anxiety into overdrive. I lie awake at night replaying all the things I said wrong or didn't say, and imagining how people will hate me. Not a great trait, I know. I think it comes from wanting to be everything to everyone, and in a group, everyone needs something different. If you have intense social anxiety, you are not alone. And someone is actually researching what to say and when. Today I'm talking with social psychologist Vanessa Bohns, author of Should I Say Something? The Science of What to Share and What to Keep to Yourself, and I came away feeling like someone had finally handed the socially anxious among us a field guide. It's like an advice column that covers every situation you might find yourself in, except it's backed by research instead of vibes. The idea that stuck with me most: being honest, authentically, is often the kind option. Not the brave one or the risky one, the kind one. Vanessa’s research shows that when you reveal something vulnerable, people hear more than the content. They hear a signal that you can be trusted. In this episode, we talk about: * Why sharing something negative can build trust instead of breaking it * The 5-to-1 ratio of positive to negative that keeps relationships balanced * Why venting to close friends can turn into rumination (and who to vent to instead) * Humble-bragging, “sad fishing,” and why they backfire * How to share good news with people who might respond with envy * “Benevolent honesty,” and why not giving feedback can be both unkind and dishonest * How to ask personal questions without making someone feel singled out * When to apologize, and what to say when you want to show empathy without taking the blame * What to do when there’s no clear right answer, only right versus right I also loved hearing how the book came to be (it was rejected by seven publishers before it found its home), and we spend some time on that gorgeous cover. If you’ve ever stayed up wondering whether you handled something the right way, I think this conversation will put your mind at ease. It did that for me. And if you want the book, you can find it here. It’s out TOMORROW, and she has a piece in the New York Times this week that pairs well with this conversation. Tell me in the comments: what’s the thing you’ve been wondering whether to say? With love,Carissa BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is delighted you are here. PS Bad at Keeping Secrets is something I do for fun, it is such a blessing to be able to share work that I wholeheartedly believe in. The podcast is edited by Mark McDonald, Music by my sister Officially Quigley and made possible by People I’ve Loved (in the sense that we pay for it). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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September 21 · 44 min
Is sacrifice still sacrifice if it's for love?
Share this with a person you enjoy being with… I waited a long time to have kids because I was afraid I couldn't be a mother and still make things. Nina LaCour's new novel, Meet Me in the Garden, is about a painter in the 1950s trying to hold both. Is sacrifice really sacrifice if it's for love? I grew up being told I could be myself and do anything I wanted. But is that ever really true? Today, Nina and I talk about her grandparents' journey from New Orleans to LA, and the gardens we build to survive. Follow Nina here. Buy Nina’s book here or at your local bookstore. Thanks so much for being here. And checking out Nina’s work. It will make you feel understood, I promise. Sending love and so much gratitude, Carissa About Meet Me in the Garden New Orleans, 1944. Odette has always been one of the Honore sisters, glamorous and admired in their Creole community. But while Odette’s older sisters are content to be wives and mothers, Odette has always wanted something else. It is only with her beloved cousin, Delphine, that Odette can tell her secret: she is in love with a woman, and she longs to be an artist. Delphine has a secret lover, too, a white man. In the hidden garden they’ve discovered, Odette and Delphine can dream of futures full of passion and freedom.But five years later, Odette's life is nothing like what she'd planned. She's a widowed mother, living in Los Angeles, and she and Delphine, who is passing as white, have spiraled away from each other. When Delphine reaches a breaking point, Odette must make a shattering choice to try to hold her family together.Profound and expansive, a story of love and longing, art and motherhood, friendship and desire, Meet Me in the Garden is a decades-spanning tour de force, inspired by the author’s family and tracing the history of the Great Migration. Nina LaCour is the award-winning, bestselling author of several young adult novels, including We Are Okay, which won a Printz Award. Her first novel for adults, Yerba Buena, came out in 2022. Her new novel, Meet Me in the Garden, is a sweeping family saga inspired by her Creole roots and the history of the Great Migration, following cousins Odette and Delphine from New Orleans to Los Angeles. She lives in San Francisco with her wife and daughter. PS Bad at Keeping Secrets is something I do for fun, it is such a blessing to be able to share work that I wholeheartedly believe in. The podcast is edited by Mark McDonald, Music by my sister Officially Quigley and made possible by People I’ve Loved (in the sense that we pay for it). PPS I love Nina. Here is us doing oysters at Amanda’s wedding. I must have been 39 years old. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS loves that you are here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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September 8 · 1 hr 17 min
She considered paying for sex.
A few months ago, I posted this episode, because I thought it was SO good behind a paywall. BUT I really want you all to hear what Savala has to say, so here goes. On Being Good with Savala Nolan Last night my husband was disappointed about a hot dog. He wanted a braught. Like not the thing I brought home. Not metaphorically. An actual hot dog, the wrong kind, because I’d gone to the store and grabbed a veggie one and we had some hot dogs. He didn’t make a scene. He was just quietly, visibly disappointed. And something in me lit on fire. I am not good at letting his disappointments not affect me. Because he had taken a nap. He deserved a nap. We all do. I stood in the kitchen doing the math that women have been doing forever — the meal planning, the grocery run, while doing laundry, the pickups, the social planning, the bedtime routine, all of it running parallel to a full time job — and I thought: I have spent my whole life trying to be good. And this is what it looks like. I’ve known Savala Nolan for a few years, since her first book Don’t Let It Get You Down stopped me cold. So when Good Woman came out — one of Ms. Magazine’s most anticipated books of 2026 — I couldn’t get my hands on it fast enough. Savala is a social justice lawyer, a mother, a writer, and about a thousand other things. And in Good Woman she asks the question I didn’t know I’d been waiting for someone to ask out loud: what does it actually mean to be good? Not good in the abstract — good as a woman. Good as a daughter, a partner, a mother. Good in the way we were all quietly handed a blueprint for and told to follow without question. Her argument is not gentle. We have been sold a lie. The lie is that goodness — the performing of it, the exhausting maintenance of it — will make our lives good in return. That if we are pretty enough, helpful enough, quiet enough, we will be rewarded with happiness, contentment, safety. That the hot dog will be appreciated. It won’t. It never was going to be. Savala has a practice she’s developing with her own daughter, and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it since she told me. She calls it raising her wild. Not wild like feral, not wild like out of control. Wild like: allowed to feel what she feels without being shamed into swallowing it. Wild like: she gets to choose what she wears, who she loves in movies, what she wants to be when she grows up — even if what she wants to be is the Wicked Witch and not Dorothy. Wild like: she can play in the mud because it feels good on her skin and that is reason enough. I am trying to do this with my daughter Margaret too. It is harder than it sounds. Because the training runs deep. I catch myself doing it — the gentle redirect away from the big feeling, the suggestion that maybe we don’t need to be quite so loud right now, the subtle steering toward the easier, softer, more acceptable version of herself. The good girl version. And then I have to stop and ask: good for whom? Savala’s point is that this is where it starts. Not with the hot dog, not with the marriage, not with the years of quietly shrinking — it starts here, in childhood, when we first learn that our hunger is inconvenient. That our wildness needs managing. That being good means making ourselves easier for everyone else to be around. What if it didn’t have to start there? What if we let them stay wild long enough to know what they actually want? I don’t have it figured out. But I am paying attention now in a way I wasn’t before. And some days Margaret comes home from school and something happens and instead of telling her to calm down I just say: tell me everything. And she does. And it is loud and it is messy and it is completely, perfectly her. That feels like a start. What I love about Savala is that she doesn’t just burn it down and leave you in the ash. She asks: if we don’t have to be good, what is the something else we’re all quietly yearning for? How do we even name it after a lifetime of not being allowed to want it? She goes there. All the way there. After her divorce, she considered paying for sex — not as a punchline, but as a serious question about desire and its costs. Who pays for it, who performs it, who is allowed to simply want it without owing anything in return. The gendered economy of longing. What we have been taught to do with our hunger instead of feeding it. That hunger is the thread running through the whole book. What are we all trying to tame into something safer, something more acceptable, something good? And what are we losing every time we do? And then — this is the part that stayed with me longest — she asks what it would mean if the metaphor for God wasn’t father, but mother. Not a distant authority to earn approval from, but the kind of love that is already attuned to you. Already present. Already certain of your worth before you’ve done a single thing to deserve it. Her complicated start of an answer to all of it is this: be your own beloved. Let all creatures drink of joy. I’ve been thinking about that phrase since I finished the book. What it would mean to treat yourself with the same devotion you’ve spent years pouring outward. To be as attentive to your own hunger as you have been to everyone else’s. Even when they wanted a different hot dog. This conversation is one of my favorites I’ve ever had. We talk about motherhood and God, about divorce and desire, about raising daughters who don’t shrink. I think it’ll make you a little angry in the best way, and then it’ll make you feel free. And if you haven’t read the book yet — go get it. Here. Savala is on Substack, check her out here: OK, sending love, Carissa PS The music from this podcast is by my sister, Officially Quigley. It was edited by Mark McDonald (who will make you feel like you can be Terry Gross even when you stumble over words like “morning”). PPS If you want to support us at People I’ve Loved, but paying for emails is not your thing, get yourself a MUG or get one as a gift. Here is one we make (I drew this while thinking of my mom): OK bye for real :) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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August 3 · 49 min
Holding the s**t show of grief.
Hi. It’s Carissa and this is bad at keeping secrets. How do you feel sad? What does grief look like? This week I have the pleasure sit down with Carla Fernandez to talk about something we all carry but don’t really know how to hold: grief. Her book, Renegade Greif, demands space for loss, offering tools, rituals, and language for navigating our sadness in a world that too often tells us to move on. If you’re yearning for a way to work with your sorrow, or just need permission to feel, this conversation is for you. It’s out in paper back now. Share this with someone to let them know they are not alone. Grief isn’t something we get over. It’s something we move with, slowly, awkwardly, and sometimes beautifully. In today’s conversation, I sit down with Carla, co-founder of The Dinner Party and a renegade in the world of grief work. Together, we explore the ways grief shapes us, not just emotionally, but biologically. We talk about the awkwardness of support, the quiet power of altars, the strange rituals that help us stay human, and the long, looping journey (I hate this word but it is what came to mind) of learning to live with loss. This episode is for anyone who's ever wondered if they're grieving the “right” way, anyone who’s been asked to show up for someone else when they were breaking inside, and anyone trying to find meaning in the mess. Grief isn’t linear. But community, ritual, and honest conversation? They help. What do you do that helps you get through the day? Carla has so lovingly rallied this ritual collection for you. In case you need a place to start. Her book, Renegade Grief, is a much more expansive version… With love, Carissa PS Bad At Keeping Secrets is a podcast by Carissa Potter (me). The audio was produced by Officially Quigley, and the sound editing was done by Mark McDonald. Mark helps people start podcasts, and I highly recommend him if you have been thinking about starting one. You can sign up for a free meeting with him here. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is so excited you found me. Let’s keep in touch. And talk about the human stuff. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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July 20 · 41 min
Wonder is a survival skill.
What if make-believe isn’t an escape from reality, but one of the ways we learn to face it? In this episode, I sit down with beloved children’s author Mac Barnett to talk about his new book, Make Believe, and why children deserve real art—not stories that simply try to teach them lessons. We explore the radical idea that kids aren’t unfinished adults waiting to become people. They are already whole human beings, and perhaps they have something to teach us. Together we talk about imagination as a practice of hope, why wonder might be one of our greatest survival skills, the history of children’s literature, and what makes a story true. If you’ve ever wondered how we prepare ourselves—or our children—for an uncertain future, this conversation is a gentle reminder that before we can build a better world, we have to be able to imagine one. Because maybe the best stories don’t tell us what to think. They remind us what it feels like to be alive. I hope you enjoy. XO, Carissa PS Bad at Keeping Secrets is something I do for fun, it is such a blessing to be able to share work that I wholeheartedly believe in. The podcast is edited by Mark McDonald, Music by my sister Officially Quigley and made possible by People I’ve Loved (in the sense that we pay for it). If you want to support us, get our new ONLY GOOD THINGS Calendar for 2027! PPS If you have made it this far, YAY! And also, I have a extra copy of Mac’s book, Make Believe. Do you want it? Comment here with your wildest dreams and I will randomly pick someone to sent it to in the USA. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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June 29 · 47 min
Parenting on a planet in crisis.
I used to think hope was something you had to earn: proof things would turn out fine before you were allowed to feel okay about them. So when my anxiety about the world my kids are growing up in got loud, I didn’t reach for hope. I reached for control. More research. More doom-scrolling disguised as diligence, as if memorizing every wildfire statistic would somehow keep the world from catching fire. Just curious, how are you parenting in this moment? What gives you hope for a better world for our children? Then I talked to Kaitlyn Teer. Kaitlyn is a senior editor at Cup of Jo and the author of Little Apocalypses, a book she wrote after becoming a mother turned her climate anxiety into something almost unbearable. What struck me wasn’t that she’d found a way to feel better. It’s that she’d found a way to stay honest about how bad things are and still choose hope, on purpose, not by accident. Got someone who is a parent and has climate anxiety? Share this with them. It’s what Krista Tippett calls “muscular hope,” and it’s the perfect description for what Kaitlyn’s doing in this book. Not the kind that looks away. The kind that’s done the math, read the statistics, felt the overwhelm, and decided to build something anyway. I went in expecting to talk about dread. We did. But we landed somewhere I didn’t expect: a real answer to the question I ask myself most nights after I put my kids to bed: how do I stay present for both the disasters and the little joys of raising a human? If you’ve ever needed permission to believe things might be okay, not naively, but on purpose, this one’s for you. Follow Kaitlyn here, on Substack, and get a copy of her book Little Apocalypses - I promise, if you are a person who is thinking about the intersections of parenthood and climate change, you will feel seen and supported. Sending love to all of you humans out there. Times are tight, but we are strong. Love, Carissa PS Bad at Keeping Secrets is something I do for fun, it is such a blessing to be able to share work that I wholeheartedly believe in. The podcast is edited by Mark McDonald, Music by my sister Officially Quigley and sponcered by People I’ve Loved (in the sense that we pay for it). BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is a reader-supported publication. We love having you here. It might be fate, we found each other. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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March 30 · 52 min
Tell them. First. Without waiting.
The Mistake I Keep Making (And Maybe You Do Too) I used to think my biggest problem was saying too much. I’m Carissa. I’m bad at keeping secrets — literally, it’s the name of my podcast — and for a long time I low-key believed that my tendency to overshare was something I needed to fix. Like if I could just learn to hold back a little more, I’d seem more polished. More put-together. More professional. Case in point: when my mother-in-law first met me, she told my husband Josh that she was surprised he liked me because I talked too much. Too much. And honestly? She wasn’t wrong. I’ve spent a lot of my life believing that my openness was the problem. Then I sat down with Leslie John, a Harvard professor who has spent years researching self-disclosure, and she completely flipped the script on me. Turns out, the thing most of us should actually be worried about isn’t sharing too much. It’s sharing too little. Leslie calls it TLI — Too Little Information — and it’s everywhere. It’s the “I’m fine” when you’re not. It’s swallowing the hard conversation because you don’t want to make things weird. It’s never saying “I love you” first because what if they don’t say it back. It’s editing yourself so carefully, for so long, that the people closest to you don’t actually know you. And here’s what hit me hardest: Leslie told me that undersharing is actually one of the biggest problems in long-term relationships. Ding ding ding. I’m not going to lie — I needed to hear that one right now. Like, personally. Like she was talking directly to me. I think about how many times I’ve censored myself in relationships, in friendships, even in my own marriage — convinced I was being smart or safe — when really I was just quietly building walls and calling it boundaries. We kick off the conversation with a question I think so many of us have wrestled with: is it a good idea to tell someone you love them first? The answer might surprise you — but you’re going to have to listen to find out. Leslie’s book, Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing, isn’t a permission slip to trauma dump on your coworkers. It’s something way more nuanced and honestly more important than that. It’s about learning to read the room, understanding when to be transparent versus vulnerable, and recognizing that being truly known by the people around you isn’t a liability — it’s the whole point. If you want the full run down on the how and the why of knowing when to share, grab her book. It’s the kind of read that makes you want to call someone you love immediately after. So whether you’re an oversharer who just wants to feel good about it, or someone who holds everything close and is tired of feeling invisible — this episode is for you. And when you’re done listening? Tell someone you love them. First. Without waiting. Without knowing if they’ll say it back. Because Leslie’s research shows that most of the time, they will. And even when it’s scary, even when your voice shakes a little — that moment of being truly seen is worth every second of vulnerability it took to get there. I spent a long time thinking my openness was too much. Turns out, it was never enough. Don’t make the same mistake. Listen, subscribe, and go tell someone how you feel. We’ll be here when you get back. Love, Carissa PS Who doesn’t like a good quiz? Check out Leslie’s to find out more of what kind of oversharer you are. PPS If you liked this and want to support us, subscribe :) Or get something for someone you love from People I’ve Loved. Like a mug for your mom (this was the OG mug we made for my mom for mother’s day 2020…) PPPS Bad At Keeping Secrets is a podcast by Carissa Potter (me). The music was produced by Officially Quigley, and the sound editing was done by Mark McDonald. Mark helps people start podcasts, and I highly recommend him if you have been thinking about starting one. You can sign up for a free meeting with him here. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is a reader-supported publication. We are so happy you are here! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
- Transcript
March 16 · 57 min
I tried to fix my husband. A neuroscientist stopped me.
Persuasion (n.): The act of causing someone to do or believe something through reasoning or argument. From the Latin persuadere — to advise thoroughly. Note that nowhere in the definition does it say anything about the other person actually wanting to be advised. I have spent years trying to get Josh to exercise. Not in a controlling way. Or — okay, maybe in a slightly controlling way, but for good reasons. Ten out of ten doctors agree that moving your body is good for you. This is not a controversial position. This is not me projecting. This is just science, and I would like the person I love to be alive and ambulatory for as long as possible, partly because I love him and partly because I have done the math and I cannot physically take care of him if something goes wrong. I have told him this. Directly. Lovingly. With data. His response is not words. It is a look. The look says: you think you know better than me. You think I’m not doing enough. You are trying to control my time. He doesn’t have to say any of it. It lands anyway, fully formed, right in the center of my chest. And just like that, the conversation is over — not because we fought, but because the look closed the door before I could get through it. I asked his sister once. She is excellent at movement, the kind of person who actually looks forward to it, and I thought maybe she had a key I didn’t. Her advice: just take things off his plate so he has more space. I appreciated this. I also wanted to laugh. I have a plate. My plate is full. My plate has things on it that fell off other people’s plates. I cannot take things off Josh’s plate with the plate situation I am currently managing. So for years, nothing changed. And I kept trying the same things — the gentle ask, the walk-to-get-coffee reframe, the calm laying out of medical evidence — and getting the same look. And somewhere in the back of my mind I started to wonder if the problem was not Josh’s relationship to exercise but my relationship to giving advice. Enter Emily Falk. Falk is a neuroscientist at the University of Pennsylvania and the author of What We Value, and she studies how the brain actually processes information, change, and persuasion. What she found rearranged something in me. The first thing: the part of the brain that activates when we receive unsolicited advice is the same part associated with social threat. Being told what to do doesn’t just feel annoying. It registers, neurologically, as danger. Josh’s look is not stubbornness or defensiveness or a personal rejection of my very reasonable cardiovascular concerns. It is, in the most literal sense, his brain protecting him. Which means every time I made my careful, loving, evidence-based case for movement, I was accidentally pulling the pin on a grenade. But here is the part that really got me. Because it would be easy to read this and conclude that Josh is the problem — that his threat response is the obstacle, that if he could just receive information without his nervous system treating it like an attack, everything would be fine. Except Falk also has things to say about the person doing the advising. About why we give advice in the first place. About the uncomfortable truth that what looks like concern is sometimes also about us — our anxiety, our need for control, our own fear dressed up as helpfulness. I am trying to control Josh. I thought about the mornings I pick up my phone before I’ve said a word to anyone. Before coffee, before I’ve decided what kind of day I want to have, I am already checking — how is the post doing, did anyone reach out, does anyone still care, am I still here. There was a time when this ritual paid off. Good news, a new collab, someone saying something that made me feel like the work mattered. Now it’s a letdown ninety-five percent of the time. I put the phone down feeling depressed and worthless and like no one loves me. When that is simply not true. I know this. I know it the way I know that Josh should exercise, the way I know that checking the metrics at 7am is not going to make me feel better. I know it clearly, rationally, with my whole brain. And I do it anyway. Every morning. I watch myself do it almost from outside my own body, and I cannot stop. This is Falk’s second insight, the one that I couldn’t argue my way around: knowing something is good for you is almost entirely useless in the moment you are deciding whether to do it. The brain does not make decisions the way we think it does — through calm, rational weighing of evidence. It makes them fast, socially, emotionally, in response to what feels immediately rewarding and what the people around us seem to value. The milkshake wins not because you don’t know better. It wins because knowing better is the wrong tool for the job. So what is the right tool? This is where I want to hand you the book. Because what Falk found — about how change actually happens, about what makes advice land instead of detonate, about why Josh is finally, slowly, taking a few walks a week and how that happened without a single additional conversation about cardiovascular health — is something I could not have predicted, and couldn’t have argued myself into believing. Share this with someone you love. It has everything to do with who is in the room when you make a decision. And almost nothing to do with knowing what’s good for you. I’m not going to tell you what to do with that. You know I won’t. (Or am I kinda doing it right now??) But I will say: something shifted. Not dramatically. Not in a way that makes a clean story. Just — the look comes less often now. And some mornings, I put the phone down before I check. XO, Carissa PS Bad At Keeping Secrets is a podcast by Carissa Potter (me). The audio was produced by Officially Quigley, and the sound editing was done by Mark McDonald. Mark helps people start podcasts, and I highly recommend him if you have been thinking about starting one. You can sign up for a free meeting with him here. PPS One more plug for Emily. Her book is here. PPPS If you are in the Bay Area, THIS SATURDAY, Ashley Neese and Danny Paul Grody are hosting an event at the Berkeley Art Museum. Click here for more info. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
- Transcript
March 9 · 50 min
"I DON’T MAKE CONTENT FOR YOU."
‘I don’t make content for you.’ I was reading something Gabby wrote recently and it stopped me in my tracks. We both feel it — the world is a lot right now. We see it the same way, we respect each other deeply, and yet we find ourselves responding to it all very differently. That contrast has been sitting with me. How are you responding to this moment? So I reached out to her. Not for answers exactly, but because I wanted to hear how she’s making sense of this moment — and what she thinks we should do with it. That’s what blogger, designer, best-selling author Gabrielle Blair said to MAGA supporters who love her design tips but ignore her politics. And it sparked a whole conversation about who we’re willing to include and who we’re not. Today: activism, complicity, privilege, and the line between being inclusive and making space for harm. We talk about Confederate town names, being called racist for anti-racist work, and why there are no excuses left for supporting fascism. This one goes deep. Here we go. Gabby is amazing, follow her here: Sending love, rage, hope, care, kindness and whatever you need today. Permission to make. You got this. We got this. We don’t have another option. XO, Carissa BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is so glad you are here. We want to be in this with you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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March 2 · 35 min
If Circe, Bridgerton, and Cinderella were one story... BOOK GIVEAWAY!
Let’s be real, happy endings mean what again? In today’s episode of Bad At Keeping Secrets, I’m sitting down with Rachel Hochhauser, author of Lady Tremaine — a stunning reimagining of Cinderella told through the eyes of the stepmother herself. But this conversation goes so much deeper than a fairy tale retelling. Rachel opens up about becoming a single parent while her husband was ill, how that experience of fierce, consuming maternal love became the beating heart of her book, and why she believes the stories we’ve been told about what it means to be a “good woman” might be doing us more harm than good. We talk about agency, happy endings, the exhausting pressure to always be nice, and what it really looks like to trust your own instincts — as a writer, a mother, and a person. BOOK GIVEAWAY To enter, sign up for Rachel's Substack! Rachel just started a Substack, and to celebrate the book, we're giving away one copy to a lucky reader. Next week, I'll randomly select one person who signed up and email them to get their address — so I can send them my copy of Lady Tremaine! This book is for you if you loved Wuthering Heights, if you're sick of waiting to be saved, or if motherly love changed you in ways you don't like to admit. I loved it. To my core. I hope you will too. Thanks for being here. XO, Carissa PS This podcast is edited by Mark McDonald. The music is by my sister, Casey Goode. And I do this because I LOVE sharing peoples work. I get this joy because you are here. I am so grateful for you! PPS We have a new book out, The Imaginary Atlas, with Candace Cui and People I’ve Loved. It is fantasy related too! It is a journal to help YOU figure out what your fantasies are. Get a copy here: If this email made you feel better in anyway, or introduced you to something you are inspired by, we would love to have you with us. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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February 17 · 39 min
Humans are makers. Not scrollers.
Recently, my dear friend, artist and author, Lisa Solomon asked me if I would write about the color grey. I told her I was bad with color, so gray was perfect. It was for her book, Art Craft Color - where she asked 20 artists/crafters to come up with ideas that would make your life more colorful and also blur the line between artist and craftsperson. All the projects make you feel like you got this. And you do, you are an artist. I wanted to share my practice with you all today, because I thought it might be helpful. I want you to experience the healing power of making things. Drawing Through Anxiety. This could be a drawing exercise. This could be a screaming exercise. The supplies needed depend on what you feel like using to express yourself with the least amount of friction. For me, I love the way sumi ink flows on paper and I have it close to me at all times. I love the contrast between the paper and ink. I love how fast it is, you can make something stunning with very little planning and tools. The ink pools in places and sometimes I can see myself in its reflection. Share this with someone who is anxious… Steps: 1. Rally a word document, or a blank journal & a writing tool close by (I use a marker and pencil), some paint/ink and a brush(s if you want to be fancy) and a big old sheet of paper. Or anything else you have that you are drawn to. All of this is about what feels good and easy for you. Nothing else matters. Grab a warm beverage, or cool one depending on your desired body temperature. Take a few deep long breaths, relaxing your shoulders. 2. Free write down what you are spiraling about preferably under a full moon. Don’t worry how it sounds, what it reads like, no one will ever see this. It is about accessing a different part of you, creating distance, a separation between you and your thoughts and emotions. About taking them outside your head, and putting them somewhere else. 3. Look through your writing and find universal truths, or think about what you are longing to hear. Highlight that. Or write down the next thing you think of. 4. Sketch out your text/drawing/whatever on your big sheet of paper. Perhaps a totally unnecessary step I take is to sketch it out before I paint. I do this because I am scared I will screw up. I still believe that intentions matter and I should have a plan. But sometimes only a little or no plan creates things that are even more interesting, more beautiful. I guess sketching it out gives me comfort, the right amount of plan to just get going. Add some images that you feel like tell part of the story - it doesnt have to be poetic, or meaningful. Simply describe what is going on in your head or what you choose to focus on. 5. When have enough of a plan, just go ahead and dip that brush in and paint the text, or if you are more comfortable with images, go with that. Bloobs and mistakes welcome. Spelling errors mean it was done by a human. You are one. That is so miraculous. 5. Sit with what you have made. Consider sharing it with someone who would feel less alone if they received it. How are you feeling now? Has anything changed inside of you? 6. When you are ready, move on with your day. If you need a pep-talk, listen to Lisa here. I promise she will feel like an old friend rooting for you. Pre-order Art Craft Color now, here. Sending love and courage to make things, ugly things, and some beautiful, in this wild world, Carissa PS What do you make when you are feeling anxious? Lisa Solomon is is an oakland, california based mixed media artist, author, educator, and occasional curator, who has been teaching at Bay Area Colleges and classes around the world for 20+ years. As a Hapa, she continually explores ideas, spaces, and materials that are in-between. A self-declared color geek, she is profoundly interested in bridging the gaps between being creative, living creatively, creating community, and making a living as a creative. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is so delighted that you are here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Dec 15, 2025 · 1 hr 1 min
This Is Why You Are Tired...
Almost everything will work again if you unplug for a few mintues inclduing you. -Anne Lemott Hey, it’s Carissa, and this is Bad at Keeping Secrets. Today, we’re diving into something I think we all feel but struggle to name: digital exhaustion. You know that feeling when you’ve been switching between instagram, tictok, email, and three different tabs, and suddenly you’re just... depleted? My guest Paul Leonardi wrote a book called Digital Exhaustion, and we’re going to talk about what he calls the Exhaustion Triad (the real reasons our devices are wearing us down). It’s not just screen time. It’s about attention switching, the cognitive load of constantly deciding which tool to use next, and the emotional weight and anxiety of carrying all this information in our pockets. We’ll also get into practical strategies for digital resilience, how to think about AI, and what it means to be “here, not elsewhere” - especially when you’re juggling worklaod, social ties, and parenting. Check out more of Paul’s research at: www.paulleonardi.com If you are like me and days go by feeling overwhelmingly busy, and yet you get nothing done or the first thing you do when you wake up is look at your phone, and suddenly feel a sense of dread for the day and still cant kick the habit, this podcast is for you. Send yourself some love and compassion this holiday. This has been a hard year. For everyone. XO, Carissa ALSO, the amazing Sophie Odira found me on IG and we both posted almost the same text at the same time! The universe is telling us we all are so tired… Check her out on https://soundcloud.com/sophie-odira-hansing. Her music is beautiful and SO relatable. Send this to your tired friends… PS This podcast is edited and mixed by Mark McDonald, the music is by my very own sister, Officially Quigley, and funded by me (cuz, I like doing this). If you want to support us, and need a last min gift for someone, visit check out our website www.peopleiveloved.com. 30% OFF SALE ENDS WEDNESDAY BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is super happy you found me (carissa) right now… This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Dec 8, 2025 · 43 min
How to slow down and find magic again...
In celebration of darkness, this week I want to revisit my chat with Katherine May, a best-selling author and podcast host, of whom I adore in so many ways. I first heard about her with her book, Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times during the height of the lockdown in 2020. In so many ways, this book helped me let go of control and step back. That there is comfort in resting. I don’t know about you, but I needed permission to use rest as a way to keep going. When I saw she had a new book coming out, I had to talk to her. I do these interviews because I love meeting people and I love sharing ideas that I feel are helpful in defining what it means to be alive in these times. And wow, Katherine does that. First, let me explain the title. For those of you who thought of rainbows and unicorns with this title, sadly, there are not any featured in this book. However, the elements here, are no less filled with wonder and magic. The book is organized around connecting with the Earth, Water, Fire, and Air - giving into the cyclical nature of being. Western culture so often has us working against the seasons, nature, and each other. This leaves us feeling disconnected and often like we are swimming upstream (maybe this is just me? IDK) working against forces that naturally offer soothing moments. I also pretend Katherine is a dictionary, and ask her how she would define terms that I feel like I don’t really have a grasp on even though I have spent my life using them freely. For what seems like forever, I have been trying to make a structure for meaning that reflects the world I have experienced. Perhaps you are doing this too? It feels like a longing for understanding and connection, a search for some truth (all the while knowing there probably is none…). We re-define Enchantment, Rituals, Resilience, and how Katherine sees God in this moment. She, however, pushes back on the idea of fixed definitions altogether. And why it might feel good to feel small sometimes. Sending softness and care your way, love always, Carissa PS This podcast is self-funded by me. Because I love talking to people who I believe in, I am so lucky they say yes. With help from Stephanie Tsou (you rock!!!), Mark McDonald (he helps make people’s podcast dreams a reality) and my lovely sister/soulmate, Officially Quigley did the music. If you like this, it would mean the world if you subscribed. I appreciate you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Nov 10, 2025 · 32 min
What If Motherhood Wasn’t Meant to Be Solo?
Hi, it’s Carissa, and this is Bad at Keeping Secrets. For the past few months, when people have asked what I am reading, I have replied a book about a mommune. I swear, everyone I told was interested in hearing more. I’m sitting down with writer Domenica Ruta, author of All the Mothers—a stunning, raw, and deeply human novel about women whose lives intersect in unconventional ways. She created a mommune—mothers raising children, supporting each other, redefining what family, beauty and support can look like inspired by her own life. We talk about what it actually means when we say things will “work out”—and what to do when they don’t. This is about the myths we’ve been sold about the boundaries of friendships and romantic relationships. All The Mothers gives you the agency to expand what is possible for connection and community. Get the book here: If you want to support this podcast, and shop small this holiday season, check out our website peopleiveloved.com. We have cards, journals, and our best-selling ONLY GOOD THINGS Calendar is back in stock. IN OTHER NEWS: * FAMILY UPDATE: We found out that M doesn’t need insulin yet! So we are enjoying our days before that comes into play for us… Diabetes is super common in people who have Cystic Fibrosis. Feeling less depressed about health stuff today. BUT also, she likes shoes. I was never into shoes… but we went shopping for the first time alone together and she wanted to try on all the fancy stuff… * I just finished a mural at a local house in Berkeley. I love it so much I had to share it here: OH my gosh. Thank you so much for listening. And I would love to hear about your ideal way to feel less alone in motherhood: Love, Carissa BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is so glad you are here. We would love to continue the conversation. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Oct 21, 2025 · 24 min
How to know when you need to leave...
Today I’m joined by Jessica Baum, a psychotherapist and the author of Safe: A New Way of Looking at Attachment. Her book comes out next week! I promise you will love it. Or I hope you like it as much as I did. How to Know When to Leave - Part 2 of my conversation with Jessica Baum Lately, it feels like everyone is talking about attachment theory. I scroll online through articles and essays about attachment sometimes, curious, half-amused, half-heartbroken. There’s something oddly comforting about realizing how many of us are just trying to make sense of our patterns - to understand why connection can feel both like safety and danger at once. You guessed it, I am an anxious attachment most of the time. Asking myself the question, can I be anxious and worried and feel safe in my relationships? And what it means to actually feel safe in a relationship - not just secure in theory, but calm in the body. Therapist Jessica Baum writes beautifully about this in her book, offering a roadmap for those of us who have spent a lifetime in survival mode. She talks about how attachment wounds - those early, invisible imprints - can shape the way we move through the world. How we seek love, and how we sometimes run from it. What struck me most was her invitation to notice when our nervous systems are leading the way - when we’re in fight, flight, or freeze - and to find small, grounded ways back to trust. It’s not about fixing ourselves or finding the “right” partner. It’s about learning to recognize the moments when something inside us says: this isn’t safe anymore. And maybe that’s the hardest part - knowing when to stay and when to leave. Because secure love isn’t supposed to feel like walking on eggshells or constantly trying to earn your place. It’s supposed to feel like warmth, like ease, like a deep breath. Sometimes, the bravest thing we can do is to stop running from the ache inside us long enough to listen to it. Healing, it turns out, is less about perfection and more about noticing - the small shifts, the moments of calm, the people who make your nervous system sigh in relief. Making a space between the stimuli and our actions. Maybe that’s what we’re all looking for. Not just to be loved, but to feel safe enough to stay - or safe enough to go. This is such a rich conversation, and the second part is my favorite. And a bonus - Jessica has also created some free gifts for you, including a resource on attachment beyond labels and a video conversation with her mentor, Bonnie Badenoch. See you next time.Let’s love, Carissa PS You can find Jessica Baum on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. PPS Our 2026 ONLY GOOD THINGS Calendar is almost sold out! If you want one, here is the link. We are holding out hope for the future and celebrating the cyclical nature of life with our new Only Good Things 2026 Calendar made in collaboration with Goods for the Study. This calendar collects our favorite things for each month, plus moon phases and space for hand-written notes. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is a newsletter and podcast where we talk about things. If you found me, maybe it is for a reason? We will probably never know… This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Oct 13, 2025 · 41 min
To Love Someone More Than Love Itself
More Than Love: A Conversation on Grief, Legacy, and Becoming Ourselves There are some stories that never stop unfolding, they just shift shape as we move through life. This week, I am talking with Natasha Gregson Wagner about her memoir More Than Love. QUESTION: Who expanded your understanding of love? Margaret did for me. Why, I think it was entirely biological/magical. Natasha writes about her mother, Natalie Wood, with such sensory tenderness: the scent of gardenia, the lullabies sung at night, the way love imprints itself through small, ordinary gestures. Listening to her describe those early memories, I kept thinking about how memory is a kind of architecture, built from scent, sound, and touch. It’s how we carry the people we lose. In our conversation, Natasha spoke openly about the long silence that followed her mother’s death, and the slow, private decision to finally tell her story. The memoir isn’t just about setting the record straight, though it does that, but about reclaiming her mother as a whole person: complex, luminous, flawed, human. Writing became a way of making peace with all the versions of Natalie Wood that exist - it could only happen in our current moment of holding all the complexities of personhood. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS (me, Carissa Potter) wants you to be here: We talked about how grief evolves, how as children, we absorb loss without language, and as adults, we circle back to it with new understanding. For Natasha, motherhood reshaped that journey. She spoke about seeing echoes of her own mother in the way she parents her daughter, and how that reflection brings both ache and comfort. It’s one of the paradoxes of love: the deeper it runs, the more it insists on making room for both presence and absence. What I mean by this is that humans understand and make meaning through contrast - the knowing and not knowing, the living with and living without. There’s a moment in our conversation, where Natasha says she’s learned to hold love and loss together without needing one to cancel the other. That feels like the heart of her story. Whether through writing, filmmaking, or simply living, she’s found ways to let memory breathe, not as something that defines her, but as something that continues to expand her. We also talked about fairness, or rather, the absence of it. Natasha described how, as a child, she believed life was supposed to make sense, and how she’s since learned to live within its mystery instead. Her spiritual path, not unlike my own, reflects a search for grace in a world that doesn’t always offer answers. As we ended our conversation, Natasha spoke about finding her own voice, apart from the legacy she was born into. “I used to think I had to live up to something,” she said. “Now I just want to live from something, from truth, from love, from my own story.” It struck me that More Than Love isn’t only a title, or a feeling, it’s a direction. A way of saying there’s always something beyond what we think love is. Something that carries us forward, even when we think we’ve reached the end and understand it all. Next week, Natasha and I will host a workshop on grief and resilience in Marin with Happy Women Dinners. It’s a gathering for anyone walking through loss or transformation, or just wants to hang out and talk about hard stuff. We’ll share our own stories, hold space for others, and explore what it means to live fully while holding the weight of what’s been lost. Share this with someone who is navigating the loss and love of a parent or child who might relate and feel less alone… I am not going to pretend to know what healing is, but it could be: not erasing the past, but learning how to walk with it, gently, openly, and with love. To wake up each morning, connect with other humans and go to bed each night. To seek out the people who push your understanding of love to be more than what it once was. XO, Carissa PS I break down a few times during this podcast over M’s health issues - I am not the best interviewer but Natasha was so kind and offered me the support of a good friend, for which I am so grateful. PPS RSVP for our day event Oct 19th from 10-4pm to jill@happywomendinners.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Sep 29, 2025 · 26 min
What Safe Feels Like.
Today I’m joined by Jessica Baum, a psychotherapist and the author of Safe: A New Way of Looking at Attachment. In our conversation, Jessica opens up about her own journey from anxious attachment to a place of safety, and she helps us explore the deeper forces that shape our relationships: from the hemispheres of the brain and implicit memories, to the ways our bodies hold trauma and longing. Together, we look at how “little me” (the younger parts of ourselves) influence patterns we repeat, and how becoming conscious of those patterns can transform not only our relationships but the way we show up in the world. We also talk about the importance of community, the power of rupture and repair in intimacy, and how building emotional anchors can help us feel held and supported - even in the hardest moments. Jessica shares so much wisdom, from neuroscience to lived experience, all with the invitation to see ourselves as evolving, spiraling beings who are always capable of deeper safety and connection. This is such a rich conversation, we actually decided to release it in two parts. And a bonus - Jessica has also created some free gifts for you, including a resource on attachment beyond labels and a video conversation with her mentor, Bonnie Badenoch. Find Jessica on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Thanks for being here with me. Sending love, Carissa This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Sep 22, 2025 · 45 min
Wanting Both: Motherhood and Art
Before we start I just wanted to invite you to come hang with Ruthie Ackerman and I at Womb House Books on Wednesday, September 24 · 6:30 - 8:30pm PDT. It is a small gathering where we will do some exercises from my book, and have some time to explore motherhood and ambivalence, together. Space is limited, sign up here! It’s free. We just want to make a space to talk about these things if they are lingering on your mind too. For the longest time, I believed I’d just know whether I wanted to be a mom. Like a bolt of clarity would strike. But the truth is, I didn’t know. Not really. And for a long time, I thought I had to choose—between being an artist and being a mother. But here’s the thing: I’m greedy. I want both. And I think I’m not alone. The world doesn’t make much space for the in-between—the questions, the ambivalence, the complexity of redefining what motherhood can look like. There's pressure to decide, to know, to fit within timelines and expectations. But what happens when we don’t? What happens when we still don’t know, even as time presses on? At 42 I am still trying to reconcile what the “right” thing is for my life and have come to terms with I will probably never really know. This week, I sat down with the writer Ruthie Ackerman to talk about her new book, The Mother Code. Reading it was like having someone reach into my head and put my most private, unspoken thoughts onto the page. Ruthie names the tension so many of us feel—the biological clock ticking louder with each year, the internal tug-of-war between art and family, freedom and rootedness. We talked about: * Maternal ambivalence, the not being 100% sure if you want kids—how common it is, and how rarely we talk about it * Redefining family narratives and how the women who raised us shape what we imagine for ourselves * The desire to do life/motherhood differently—even when we don’t know what “different” looks like * What is enoughness in life? Specifically, how delusional we are in romantic relationships. Ruthie’s honesty cracked something open for me, and I think it will for you too. Whether you’re a parent, never want kids, feel unsure, or just love real conversations about the messiness of personhood, this episode is for you. I’m so excited to share this one with you. I hope it resonates as deeply with you as it did with me. If you know someone who is feeling ambivalent about life, motherhood, and art, I would be delighted if you shared this with them… With love and curiosity,Carissa PS Grab a copy of The Mother Code here. And I am a die-hard fan of Ruthie’s substack here: PPS Bad At Keeping Secrets is a podcast by Carissa Potter (me). The audio was produced by Officially Quigley, and the sound editing was done by Mark McDonald. Mark helps people start podcasts, and I highly recommend him if you have been thinking about starting one. You can sign up for a free meeting with him here. BAD AT KEEPING SECRETS is a podcast I do because I love doing it. Thanks for finding it. And getting up this morning. You rock. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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Aug 27, 2025 · 38 min
Ask this post a question
What if you had a magic 8 ball… but it actually knew you? And instead of spitting out “Ask again later,” it handed you a question so sharp, or so tender, that you couldn’t help but see yourself differently. Today, I’m talking with designer and author Vicki Tan about her new book, Ask This Book a Question. It’s part fortune-teller, part behavioral science, and part mischievous friend who calls you out just enough. We talk about how she decided which questions made the cut, the biases and stories that shape how we see the world, and how to make decisions that actually line up with your values. We’ll get into psychic moments, Google searches, and whether a question itself can be a comfort, or even a kind of prayer. If you’ve ever wished for a guide to help you choose, change, or just sit with the uncertainty, you might find it here. And don’t worry - this book won’t tell your secrets. It’ll just ask you better ones. Sending love, Carissa Get your copy of ASK THIS BOOK A QUESTION at your favorite bookstore or here. PS I’m doing a brunch with Happy Women Dinners next month! Sunday, September 7th, noon to 2pm at a private home in the Oakland Hills. To reserve a seat, email jill@happywomendinners.com. The ticket ($150) includes a signed copy of Breathe Through It, a delicious brunch, a Q&A with me and Tara Schuster, and some hang time with other women. PPS Bad At Keeping Secrets is a podcast by Carissa Potter (me). The audio was produced by Officially Quigley, and the sound editing was done by Mark McDonald. Mark helps people start podcasts, and I highly recommend him if you have been thinking about starting one. You can sign up for a free meeting with him here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit peopleiveloved.substack.com/subscribe
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